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Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:40 pm
by _Gadianton
When the Church was a fledgling cult back in the 1800s, it preached doom and gloom. The last days, the swift coming of Christ, the anti-Christ, and all the bad stuff. I guess the apologists could claim a parallel here to various Jewish and early Christian outlooks in Christ's day, who looked forward to the Messiah ASAP. But that's how it goes with NRMs. They are small. They are weird. They bring persecution on themselves. And so, as part of their faith, they look forward to the time when God will show up personally and kick everyone's ass who hurt them. They want the whole world to burn while they stand by and say, "We told you so!"
But now the Church is a large, incorporated cult with unfathomable riches. With its worldly success, comes a close tie to the modern corporate world, and they are deeply dependendent on the success of their properties, their businesses, the pornography and alcohol sales they promote, and so on. They have no vested interest in the return of Jesus because they're doing too well. They have an interest in the success of their business, to keep people working hard, paying tihes, having kids they can barely afford so more tithes can be paid, and quite simply expanding the empire.
The Church lives in the here and now, because it's part of the world. They make up a few fictitious rules to make themselves feel as if they aren't, but everyone can see through the smokescreen. If the church ever loses its assets somehow and begins to fail, if it finds itself at odds with conservative society and the business world in the future, then it might start talking about God intervening.
Re: Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:44 pm
by _Dwight Frye
Gadianton wrote:...the pornography and alcohol sales they promote....
This is new information to me. What are the Mormon Church's ties to pornography and alcohol?
Re: Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:59 pm
by _Gadianton
You've heard of the Marriott, right? Big Mormon Hotel chain? LLLLOTTS of big money made off porn there, probably even more off of alcohol. Not to mention the alcohol that will be sold in the Church's mall. And it's kind of interesting, the Marriotts and GAs are close, very close. According to them, it's really a bad economic decision to cut those things out of the business. The implication being, that those things will not destroy our country. But yet, gay marriage, something that will not benefit the Church financially, will lead us into moral doom if we legitimize it. It's ok to open up a motel and promote pornography, alcohol, and slot machines. You can even tithe it. But don't you dare take part in a gay marriage, because at that point you're threatening the very moral fabric of society (and probably not offsetting this evil with any revenue for the church for it to reconsider).
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:37 am
by _Dr. Shades
Y'know, Gadianton, there are posts made here every once in a while that I simply can't help but agree with EVERY WORD. Your opening post is one of them. BRAVO, my good sir!
Two especially revealing quotes were the following:
And so, as part of their faith, they look forward to the time when God will show up personally and kick everyone's ass who hurt them.
You know, I never really knew why so many start-up cults were/are so fascinated with doom and gloom, but now you've made it perfectly clear. Kudos!
They have no vested interest in the return of Jesus because they're doing too well.
Very, VERY well said! When I was a kid I heard about the Second Coming of Christ, and all the tribulations to precede it, all the time. Now there's barely a word said about it. Your explanation why not makes perfect sense.
Re: Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:50 am
by _Ray A
Well
this thread on MADB might give some pause.
An interesting comment from jwhitlock in light of Gad's OP:
The early 20th century saw a level of civil unrest that entailed the calling out of the military around Washington DC in order to quell the riots that were occurring. If you read up on what was happening then, it was pretty frightening and pushed the country to the verge of civil collapse.
Conspiracy theories aside, the US will stand as a nation until the Lord's purposes dictate otherwise. My personal perspective, purely from religious speculation, indicates that no collapse will happen without the establishment of a physical Zion. Even with the establishment of Zion (and that was the theme of one of the talks in conference, which was very interesting) such a collapse still may or may not happen.
The economic problems we are talking about right now, even with movement into a deep recession or soft depression, do not seem to indicate a level of economic collapse that would lead to civil upheaval / collapse. If you take a look at the reunification of Germany almost 20 years ago, that was an event that led to some serious unemployment, economic upheaval, and unrest, yet the Germans have been able to muddle through it, even though they're still feeling the effects, especially in the east.
I'm not under the impression that we're there yet.
No emphasis on the second coming? I dunno.
LDS Church Leaders preparing us for the 2nd Coming of ChristAnd who can forget Mc Conkie's
This Final Glorious Gospel Dispensation (1979/80)
As to the desolations, upheavals, and trials of the latter days--
We shall see more of these than at any time in the history of the earth. There will be earthquakes, floods, plagues, and famines in all parts of the earth. There will be wars, desolation, destruction, and death in every nation and among every people. Gadianton bands will prey upon their fellows; crime and degeneracy and wickedness will increase on every hand. Lust and immorality and perversions and all the evils of Sodom and Gomorrah will sweep the earth as with a flood. The dispensation of the fulness of times is the one in which the Lord is preparing the vineyard to be burned; it is the day when every corruptible thing will be destroyed; it is destined to be a day of vengeance and destruction where the wicked are concerned. As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the day of the coming of the Son of Man.
In the midst of all this the Lord's Saints are commanded to stand in holy places and be not moved. The tests coming to them as individuals will be no different than those poured out upon people in [page 25] ages past. Testing and trials are the common lot of all mankind in all ages. We are here to see if we will bridle our passions and overcome the evils of the world in spite of earth and hell. Life never was intended to be easy. What though some suffer and die, what though they lay down their lives for the testimony of Jesus and the hope of eternal life--so be it--all these things have prevailed from Adam's day to ours. They are all part of the eternal plan; and those who give their "all" in the gospel cause shall receive the Lord's "all" in the mansions which are prepared.
And this at a time the Church was financially flourishing. If anything, I think the emphasis on the second coming has
increased, and I can find lots of recent quotes.
Re: Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:48 am
by _collegeterrace
Excellent post, as usual, Gad.
So in other words, the membership is just a front? A pimped out facade?
Re: Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:33 am
by _Gadianton
Shades,
Thank you for the props!
Re: Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:40 am
by _Gadianton
Ray,
Shades mentioned the 2nd coming fascinations from his experience as a young man in the church years ago, mine reflect this too. The second coming emphasis especially with the accompanying prophecies of economic doom pretty much became a relic of the past during the transition between the Joseph Fielding Smith era and the hyper incorporated era of today. ETB was very pro skousen, and pro crash, as I've noted to the apologists on numorous occasions when they try to boast the bad-mouthing of Skousen's ideas from Midgley. But he was the last, and Hinckley and Monson surely tried to keep him in check. The church today only emphasize the need for 72 hour emergency preparedness. It does not worry about the "last days" where the economy will tank, it is not looking forward to such a thing as it's completely dependent now.
Re: Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:49 am
by _Gadianton
CT,
A good question. Well, there is a facade about the membership, no doubt. What I mean, is that all the time growing up in meetings, seminary, and FHE it gets drilled into your head that Mormons are different from everyone else. Well, it's true in an odd way, not the way that they think. It's true for the fact that they've created the ultimate uninspiring "fry sauce" culture that is only peculiar in its horrific korny blandness. But that's beside the point I'm trying to make. They think they have "high standards" that separate them from the world. That is the facade. The word of wisdom and ban on R-rated movies is a little weird considering all the early church leaders and half the later ones were the town drunks and sex mongers, but plenty of people don't drink besides Mormons. There is nothing to make them the "peculiar people" that my seminary teachers promised me Mormons were. At this point, they are in and OF the world in every way, including in the way that profits and prospers off of other peoples "sins".
Re: Why the Church isn't preaching Economic Doom
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:36 am
by _Ray A
Gadianton wrote:Shades mentioned the 2nd coming fascinations from his experience as a young man in the church years ago, mine reflect this too. The second coming emphasis especially with the accompanying prophecies of economic doom pretty much became a relic of the past during the transition between the Joseph Fielding Smith era and the hyper incorporated era of today. ETB was very pro skousen, and pro crash, as I've noted to the apologists on numorous occasions when they try to boast the bad-mouthing of Skousen's ideas from Midgley. But he was the last, and Hinckley and Monson surely tried to keep him in check. The church today only emphasize the need for 72 hour emergency preparedness. It does not worry about the "last days" where the economy will tank, it is not looking forward to such a thing as it's completely dependent now.
Gad, I had those experiences too. In fact my then stake president firmly believed that we'd never see out the last century. I think such explicit definitions are gone, for sure. But I think "Messiah expectation" is still very strong. I'm forming my opinions partly from what I read on MADB too. I never read the
Ensign on or offline; I've viewed about six or seven (single) conference videos in the past seven years, because they bore the hell out of me (even when they contain second-coming content), but I do occasionally peruse conference talk titles and selected portions (very small). I'm not an ardent follower like many exmos, and very often I only know when conference is around because someone mentions it on a forum. But time and inclination willing, I'll go over the last two General Conferences to see what I can find. I also found "Messiah expectation" ideas very strong on LDS Forums (LDS.Net).
My current interest is more along the lines where Mormonism going, more so than where it came from, and threads like this interest me:
Would Your Faith Be Affected By This?, Leading Apologists ApostasizedThey are certainly more interesting than the "another hit for the Book of Mormon" threads.
Even when we disagree, I find your posts are at least provocative.