DiscussMormonism.com

Well, folks, this might be my finale, but don't count entirely on it.

Over the last several years I have, many times, defended Mormons. Why? There was only ever ONE reason for this - because I believed that Mormons were, essentially, "good people". And I think many would agree with me. Who wouldn't agree that close-knit families happily enrapt in Santa-Claus fictional stories and idealism would not make a good contribution to our society?

But, I've been very, very hypocritical. Because, you see, I'd never inflicted Mormonism on my own children. To see them going through what so many Mormons-become-disenchanted-and-disillusioned experience, would pain me too much. I decided long ago to spare my beautiful children this, and they are all turned out not only worthy, but responsible and law-abiding citizens, but most of all - very happy with their lives, and their ability to choose the direction of their lives. Church leaders and home teachers and bishops didn't inflict guilt-ridden "choices" for them, thank God. It's almost tempting to think that God delivered me and my family from this.

I would like to talk plainly, and openly, and without hypocrisy. If you want happiness in life - avoid religion like the plague. Because it will emotionally, mentally, and spiritually devour you, until there's nothing left to own in your soul. You will become a creature of habit and experience guilt-ridden obsession over matters that most normal people would not give a second thought about.

Do we have problems in our society? Of course we do. But I'd rather face those problems with a realistic attitude than believing that some Messiah-to-come will solve them by burning the wicked and saving the righteous, or that some fable-ridden "Enoch society" is possible. It has never been so, and will never be so. That is the creation of religious fiction, and Joseph Smith seems to have a Trademark on this for Mormons.

The other thing is that, regardless of Mormon belief, I see so much sarcasm and ridicule coming from the so-called "believers". Mister Scratch has convinced me that I was too naïve in regard to FARMS, which I now consider a vilifying and character-assassinating apologetic body. Very slowly, through posts here, I've come to realise this (yes, I am slow, which is probably why I became a Mormon in the first place). Their one aim is to demolish any valid criticisms of Mormonism. And I now believe that they are primarily responsible for the destruction of Michael Quinn's life and career, if not in organised form as an apologetic body, then certainly as individuals who harboured these resentments which were later expressed in FARMS publications. Bill Hamblin's "Butthead" comments were nothing in comparison to what FARMS and apologists in general did to Michael Quinn. I have now seen this, and I abhor it.

As for Dan Peterson, he's a affable and engaging person in real life, but the reality is that Dan only cares about one thing - whether or not you will accept his Mormon beliefs. That, truly, is the only way he can see ANY worth in you as an individual. And I now believe that Scratch was right in this regard. I have had my ferocious battles with Scratch, but I can see beyond all this, and I see an individual who is not set on fame, finance, or academic accolades, but a person who was trying to tell us something about the nature of modern-day Mormonism and its apologetic character-assassins, and we have been slow to understand what he has been saying, me most of all. Scratch isn't the originator of all this. The attacks on personal integrity have been coming from FARMS for years. They targeted anyone who criticised Mormonism, with no mercy.

They destroyed Michael Quinn. They destroyed his life, and his career. All of the "apologists". Yet HE was the one who freed me from so many delusions. He told truths that should have been told a century ago, in contrast to the stoopid hagiography of apologetic idiots like Francis Gibbons. HE was the one willing to give me a genuine choice of whether or not I should ever have become a Mormon, because he believed in "free agency". You still wonder why I admire the man so much? Because he epitomised, in reality, what Mormon leaders have advocated from the beginning, but became distorted along the way, that ALL TRUTH should be embraced by Mormons, including truths that are unpalatable.

And now, why do I feel that I can't even write this without some kind of secret scrutiny being undertaken? Well, it makes no difference, Mormons, because I've been out of your Cult long enough to even be bothered about that scrutiny. I don't see Christ in you. I don't see Christ in those who defend Mormonism, for the most part. Maybe, you might want to consider an original idea - it's called "humble apologetics". And the first thing you'll have to do, in my opinion, is to apologise to Professor D. Michael Quinn, for the way you have treated him over the years. He did not deserve this.
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And I quote Dan from his most recent thread on MADB:

"When people stop believing in God," G. K. Chesterton is supposed to have said, "they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything."

And I would rather be an atheist than believe in a God who can be as incriminating as the Mormon apologetic god, and when he is truck by retributive lightning - wonders why.

If you want happiness in life - avoid religion like the plague. Because it will emotionally, mentally, and spiritually devour you, until there's nothing left to own in your soul.

Otherwise known as Intellectual Materialism. Clinging onto crap.

Interesting that you refer to the LDS church as a "cult," but I would counter that with all religions being cults. Especially with our modern understandings, all religions fit that much better.

Humans need a global awakening, a realisation of their place in the universe -- their true power, not all this sin and guilt rubbish. We need to connect, rather than be divided. We can do this if we approach spirituality scientifically.

Ray

I truly enjoyed your post. I have noticed a subtle change in your posting of late and have truly enjoyed reading them. I especially like your input on beastie's thread about the MMM book. You have taught me much and I am grateful.

Your assessment of Dan is stated as kind and accurate as it possibly could be. I do agree. I have just started to read Quinn and I know that it will take a while, I do know that he got shafted and bad.

Thanx for all you do and bless you, we seem to be on the same path and you are helping me a lot along the way.

Pok

I'll relay an anecdotal experience. I was on the phone with my gf this morning. Her brother-in-law, a devout Mormon, has been in contact with her over the last week due to work related proximity. She ended up making friends with his friends, and everyone was chummy. Apparently her Mormon brother-in-law has been telling everyone in this chummy group that they should avoid her like the plague because she's the black sheep of her family, not a good person, etc... So while Mormons are superficially kind to one's face, they tend to be vicious behind the scenes. She, of course, was disappointed to find out about this, but amused that the various mutually shared friends are the ones that told her about the deceit. They chose to be loyal to her over the Mormon friend, whom they find odd.

And that, my friend, is the legacy of Mormonism. It destroys. It destroys families. It destroys friendships. And most importantly it destroys the person. It makes the person an enemy unto himself, and then subsequently unto others. There is no authenticity to Mormonism. It's just a shameful facade. What a shame.

Did Scratch somehow get Ray's login information and post this while posing as Ray? It is a bit ironic that Scratch, the quintessential character assassin, has convinced you that FARMS is just a bunch of character assassins.

Pokatator wrote:Ray

I truly enjoyed your post. I have noticed a subtle change in your posting of late and have truly enjoyed reading them.

I have to wholeheartedly agree.

Ray, I admit to having been confused by your posts in the past. At times, I thought you might be bipolar (perhaps an exaggeration, but it captures what I'm trying to say). I now believe I understand what you've been doing over the years, and I can't really fault you for it. It seems like you've just been trying to demonstrate how some critics come off, and I really get that. Much of what I post is along the same lines, albeit in a different direction.

I agree about the majority of Mormons. I honestly do think they are, on the whole, a decent group of people. I think much of what they do that can be considered harmful is more a result of indoctrination than what they'd generally do given their own true motivations (not always, of course, but I'm speaking in generalities here). I would never say the kinds of things to a Mormon's face that I have said here; at least, not in the same blunt way. The fact is, most Mormons I meet are people I tend to get along with quite well, and I'm generally sad that they can't seem to see past the silliness of their religion when taken at face value.

As for apologetics... well, it appears rather obvious that they write what they write to quell their own cog dis, as much as they don't want to admit it. Why would they get so uptight in defense of their arguments if they really felt confident about them? They're either insecure about the arguments or themselves, or most likely a combination of both. Again, it's sad.

It's clear that DCP is not dumb, despite the number of times I'd suggested that (often to show him how it sounds or the impact it makes when he does it), and from what I've seen of him on YouTube clips and such, he does seem like a nice guy. It's interesting how his posts betray his character (or perhaps the in-person nice guy thing is the sham? Who knows?) I often wonder how far he'd go if he could only drop the Mormon facade and do something more useful for the greater public.

Perhaps ironically, from what I understand, Quinn still affirms he has a "testimony" of the gospel. Is that so?

Nice post, Ray.

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Perhaps ironically, from what I understand, Quinn still affirms he has a "testimony" of the gospel. Is that so?

Yes he does. It makes his story even more tragic that a believing member was treated this way by church leaders and apologists.