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Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:07 am
by _Danna
I am having a problem understanding translation, resurrection and the spirit world. Could some GD scholar please help me out?
As I understand it, Adam (Michael), Moses and Elijah were all angels after their mortals lives, but before the resurrection of Jesus, therefore they must have been translated and have
bodies.
After Jesus was resurrected, it was possible for others to be resurrected, thus people like the three Nephites technically could have died and been resurrected instantly.
The spirit world contains
paradise and hell. While Jesus was dead he organised the missionary effort in the spirit world. Jesus had to die in order to enter the
spirit world to save the spirits, this was part of the purpose of his death.
This is all doctrine, as I understand it, clear statements from canonised scripture:
Before the death of Jesus, some beings were translated and received their immortal bodies without dying. Thus they did not enter the spirit world and are dwelling with God in the Celestial kingdom, and are the messengers who passed on various keys to Joseph etc. in the last dispensation.
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:40 am
by _Sethbag
In Mormonspeak, a person who is "translated" still has their original, mortal body, except that they have been rendered immortal temporarily. The idea is that sometime before the final judgment, they will be changed, in twinkling of an eye, from a theoretically corruptible body, into a resurrected body, which is different.
And the belief about spirit prison includes a belief that all non-LDS-baptised people who die will be in Spirit Prison, and the only way out, for them, and into Paradise, is through baptism in the LDS church. Doing work for the dead thus becomes more important, because it's actually letting people out of Spirit Prison.
It's all a load of bollocks, but there it is.
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:04 am
by _Danna
It seems to be a huge factor in the missionary program - making sure as much temple work as possible is done while there are mortals to do it. The separation between immortal, spirit, and post-mortal seems quite distinct. Although from what you say, translation appears to be some sort of stasis period.
The problem I have with the translated vs resurrected vs spirit people is the possesion of the body. Translated beings do have physical bodies as far as I can tell.
So when Joseph F. Smith had his vision which established the urgency of the matter, his view of the spirit world should have only included spirits. To highlight this, Jesus was restricted to the three days during which he was a spirit, to organise the good spirits to preach to the non-mormon spirits.
But he claims to have seen Adam and Moses(along with other possible body-holders).
So, either Joseph F. Smith had a false vision, falsifying the concept of general work for the dead in mortal life (not to mention continuing revelation). Or Moses and Adam (and Noah etc) were not angels and Moses at least could not have conferred keys on anyone, thus falsifying the restored priesthood concept.
All the pieces of the conundrum come from canonised scripture. So this is doctrine vs doctrine, I think. Unless I have missed something here.
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:06 am
by _bcspace
Book of Mormon Student Manual (1996)3 Nephi 28. Transfigured and Translated Beings
We gain most of our understanding about translated beings from 3 Nephi 28:
They never taste of death or endure the pains of death (see vv. 7–8).
They will be changed from mortality to immortality in the twinkling of an eye (see v. 8).
They experience no pain while in the flesh and no sorrow except for the sins of the world (see v. 9).
They have power over the evil men of the earth (see vv. 19–22).
They are like the angels of God, administering to whomsoever they will (see v. 30).
A change is effected on their bodies so that Satan can have no power over them, and they are sanctified in the flesh and are holy (see v. 39).
They remain in a translated state until the Judgment Day (see v. 40).
In verses 13–15 Mormon explained that translated beings are also transfigured. Elder Bruce R. McConkie defined this state as follows:
“Transfiguration is a special change in appearance and nature which is wrought upon a person or thing by the power of God. This divine transformation is from a lower to a higher state; it results in a more exalted, impressive, and glorious condition. . . .
“By the power of the Holy Ghost many prophets have been transfigured so as to stand in the presence of God and view the visions of eternity. Speaking of such an occasion in his life, Moses recorded: ‘Now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.’ (Moses 1:11; D. & C. 67:11.) . . .
“Similarly, when the Three Nephites ‘were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things,’ they were transfigured” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 803).
The difference, then, between transfiguration and translation is that transfiguration is more temporary. The Three Nephites were transfigured for a time so that they could view the visions of eternity. They were also translated, which condition is of a longer duration, until the Judgment Day.
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:47 am
by _ludwigm
Sethbag wrote:In Mormonspeak ...
... It's all a load of bollocks, but there it is.
I like these threads.
One can always learn new words and phrases referenced to Mormonism.
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:28 am
by _Danna
bcspace wrote:Book of Mormon Student Manual (1996)3 Nephi 28. Transfigured and Translated Beings
We gain most of our understanding about translated beings from 3 Nephi 28:
They never taste of death or endure the pains of death (see vv. 7–8).
They will be changed from mortality to immortality in the twinkling of an eye (see v. 8).
They experience no pain while in the flesh and no sorrow except for the sins of the world (see v. 9).
They have power over the evil men of the earth (see vv. 19–22).
They are like the angels of God, administering to whomsoever they will (see v. 30).
A change is effected on their bodies so that Satan can have no power over them, and they are sanctified in the flesh and are holy (see v. 39).
They remain in a translated state until the Judgment Day (see v. 40).
In verses 13–15 Mormon explained that translated beings are also transfigured. Elder Bruce R. McConkie defined this state as follows:
“Transfiguration is a special change in appearance and nature which is wrought upon a person or thing by the power of God. This divine transformation is from a lower to a higher state; it results in a more exalted, impressive, and glorious condition. . . .
“By the power of the Holy Ghost many prophets have been transfigured so as to stand in the presence of God and view the visions of eternity. Speaking of such an occasion in his life, Moses recorded: ‘Now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.’ (Moses 1:11; D. & C. 67:11.) . . .
“Similarly, when the Three Nephites ‘were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things,’ they were transfigured” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 803).
The difference, then, between transfiguration and translation is that transfiguration is more temporary. The Three Nephites were transfigured for a time so that they could view the visions of eternity. They were also translated, which condition is of a longer duration, until the Judgment Day.
Let me see: Transfiguration allows one into the presence of God (temporarily)- as in the Brother of Jared and the Three Nephites. Translation is a form if bodily stasis delaying 'death' until the judgement day, when death and resurrection will occur instantaneously.
In any of these cases, the person concerned is in possesion of a physical body and is not a denizen of the spirit world.
So in none of these cases should
Joseph F Smith have seen luminaries such as Adam or Moses in his doctrine defining vision of the spirit world during Christ's visit.
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:44 pm
by _Sethbag
Danna, that is a very, very excellent argument. I agree that it does present an internal inconsistency in the doctrine. While it doesn't "prove" anything, it is very consistent, at least, with the manmade nature of the church and its doctrines.
You know how they say if you're going to lie keep it very small, and very simple, because the more detail you lie about, the harder it is to keep track of all of the things you've got to remain consistent with to maintain the lie? Well, it works with manmade dogmas too. The more detail a person invents and proclaims to be true, and the more this is "improved" upon with subsequent revelations and new doctrines, the harder it is to maintain internal consistency.
I guess that's why the church leaders have finally wisened up, and no longer proclaim anything new, and in fact are letting tons of age-old Mormon theology wither and die on the vine. They don't want to be responsible for it anymore - it's too hard to do.
Just consider all of the mental gymnastics that have to be done on the nature of Elohim, who is Elohim, etc. I once started a thread on MAD about how the Quorum of the 12 issued a proclamation to the world in 1845 where they referred to the "great Elohim Jehovah", as if Jehovah and Elohim were the same individual. But of course in the endowment it's clear that Elohim and Jehovah are two different people. Someone in that thread posted that in fact the church didn't really "resolve" the nature of who was Elohim, and who was Jehovah, until like 1916 or something like that (I can't use the MAD search feature anymore since the Sethbag account got banned, or I'd find the thread and link to it). It's just more internal inconsistency.
Same with the whole God description in the Book of Mormon, where the Godhead is described in a decidedly more Trinitarian way than the Christology that later evolved in the LDS church. So we end up with mental gymnastics gems such as that Christ really is the Father through "divine investiture of authority", and other such arguments that try to patch over inconsistencies by using big words. Yeah, that's what Mormon really meant, that's what Nephi really meant, that's what Joseph Smith really meant in the early days, etc. Uhuh, they were all talking about divine investiture of authority.
Anyhow, back to your point, Danna, I think you've got a bulls-eye on your hands. Good catch!
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:43 pm
by _Danna
Thanks Sethbag, I think D&C 138 is an example of what can go wrong when succeeding prophets do try to make revelation. Joseph Smith's theology did appear to evolve, but he was generally pretty good at keeping track of things.
D&C 138 was inserted at the same time as OD2 (the black priesthood declaration), at least in my Spencer W. Kimball era Book of Mormon (both are provided on the same loose insert). So it wasn't like it was rushed into print or anything, it cleared the First XV in 1918. I am assuming it was voted on in conference in the late 70s/early 80s?
D&C 138 provides the urgency to temple work that looks to be weighing down modern members, and maybe underlies the rash of temple building from the 80s on? From my (very poor) memory, it seems to be about this time in the early 80s when church stopped being fun, and my mother lost any sense of humor and started stashing away food stores and going to the Temple very often. I am wondering if there is a back story to including this section? (other than pre-dating the correlation committee).
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:59 pm
by _antishock8
Uh. It's all bullshite, Darlin'. Pink unicorns n' such.
Re: Translation, resurrection, and spirit bodies?
Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:10 am
by _harmony
Sethbag wrote:Danna, that is a very, very excellent argument. I agree that it does present an internal inconsistency in the doctrine. While it doesn't "prove" anything, it is very consistent, at least, with the manmade nature of the church and its doctrines.
You know how they say if you're going to lie keep it very small, and very simple, because the more detail you lie about, the harder it is to keep track of all of the things you've got to remain consistent with to maintain the lie? Well, it works with manmade dogmas too. The more detail a person invents and proclaims to be true, and the more this is "improved" upon with subsequent revelations and new doctrines, the harder it is to maintain internal consistency.
I guess that's why the church leaders have finally wisened up, and no longer proclaim anything new, and in fact are letting tons of age-old Mormon theology wither and die on the vine. They don't want to be responsible for it anymore - it's too hard to do.
Just consider all of the mental gymnastics that have to be done on the nature of Elohim, who is Elohim, etc. I once started a thread on MAD about how the Quorum of the 12 issued a proclamation to the world in 1845 where they referred to the "great Elohim Jehovah", as if Jehovah and Elohim were the same individual. But of course in the endowment it's clear that Elohim and Jehovah are two different people. Someone in that thread posted that in fact the church didn't really "resolve" the nature of who was Elohim, and who was Jehovah, until like 1916 or something like that (I can't use the MAD search feature anymore since the Sethbag account got banned, or I'd find the thread and link to it). It's just more internal inconsistency.
Same with the whole God description in the Book of Mormon, where the Godhead is described in a decidedly more Trinitarian way than the Christology that later evolved in the LDS church. So we end up with mental gymnastics gems such as that Christ really is the Father through "divine investiture of authority", and other such arguments that try to patch over inconsistencies by using big words. Yeah, that's what Mormon really meant, that's what Nephi really meant, that's what Joseph Smith really meant in the early days, etc. Uhuh, they were all talking about divine investiture of authority.
Anyhow, back to your point, Danna, I think you've got a bulls-eye on your hands. Good catch!
The thing is, virtually no one alive today remembers any of what has gone before correlation. Almost everyone only remembers what's gone after correlation. Most of the members don't even remember what church was like before the Block.
We have an ignorance that is deliberate, both from the leaders and the members perspective. We don't study church history so much as we study what the leaders want us to study... which isn't things like that there was any evolution of the nature of God at all.
Most people don't know that! And if you're stupid enough to tell them what really happened, they not only don't believe you, but they won't let their kids play with yours any more.