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Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:58 am
by _Roger Morrison
I thought this section on Daniel to be interesting as it leads into the Heaven/Hell concept (UL) added by RM:

Prior to the 2nd century BCE, the Jewish people spoke little about life after death. The only concept generally abroad was that of "Sheol." Sheol was located in the "middle of the earth." It was not a place of reward or punishment, it was simply the abode of the dead. No one looked forward to it. No one was comforted by it. Everyone who died went to it. If it was described at all, it was described as shadowy or as shades of life, ghostlike with no sense of joy.

When Daniel was written, however, religious persecution against the Jews had reached horrendous proportions. The Jews were forced by their enemies to eat food they regarded as unclean. The Temple was itself polluted with the installation of the head of a swine in the "Holy of Holies," an unclean animal in the very dwelling place of God. The Jews called it "the abomination of desolation." Those Jews who refused to violate their religious practices were summarily executed. The book we call II Macabees, written at the same time the book of Daniel was written, tells the story of seven brothers who, along with their mother, were arrested and were compelled to eat the flesh of a swine. The oldest brother refused and his tongue was cut out. Then he was scalped and his hands and feet were chopped off. Finally, he was taken, still breathing, to a fire and burned up. With this vision still vivid, the next brother was told he should eat the flesh of the swine or suffer the same fate. He refused and was similarly disposed of. This procedure continued until all seven brothers had been murdered. Then the mother died. It is a dreadful story.

That story, however, became a powerful instrument in giving birth to a new concept and a new passion among the Jews for life after death. That is what finds expression in the 12th and final chapter of Daniel. The driving theme was that without life after death for these faithful martyrs the very justice of God was at stake. If faithfulness to God is not rewarded beyond this life then God cannot be just. Then evil does in fact triumph over God. So heaven and hell became the categories of divine justice and the afterlife was employed to make fair this unfair world. The book of Daniel was pivotal in this transformation and, as such, exercised an enormous influence on the development of Christianity as the afterlife became crucial to the human sense of justice in both the crucifixion of Jesus and the later persecution of the Christians in loyalty to their Christ. The Book of Daniel is not a profound book, but one wonders what Christianity might have looked like if it had not been for this book. For me, however, to think of the afterlife as a place of reward or punishment distorts that concept completely. That, however, is the subject for a future column, perhaps a future book.



Thoughts, comments??

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:25 pm
by _Roger Morrison
Seems I'm alone in this... But the proposition in these lines base the hope of any existance--in Heaven or Hell--beyond mortality!?

That story, however, became a powerful instrument in giving birth to a new concept and a new passion among the Jews for life after death. That is what finds expression in the 12th and final chapter of Daniel. The driving theme was that without life after death for these faithful martyrs the very justice of God was at stake. If faithfulness to God is not rewarded beyond this life then God cannot be just. Then evil does in fact triumph over God. So heaven and hell became the categories of divine justice and the afterlife was employed to make fair this unfair world.


Really is this the rational of immortality & the Merciful-justice of a loving rewarding/punishing "God"?

Is "Sheol" the truth of the end of mortality? "Dust-to-dust..." Biodegradable flesh fertilizing the constancy of life??

While Gender-ethics pass influences forward in positive or negative currents to be comprehended, or not, by fledgings fleeing their nests of nurture? Applying for better or worse their contributions to the inevitable evolution/devolution of humanity??

This makes sense to me. What about to You?

Roger :-)

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:22 pm
by _harmony
I read it, Roger. It just takes me a while to process it. (and I'm trying to wash all my clothes, so I can pack for my trip next week.)

It seems that people nowadays think only in terms of the present... they/we don't think in terms of how what we have (that seems ancient) actually was, when it was young. We bring presentism to every thought we have.

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:37 pm
by _Danna
Looks like Daniel contrasts with Job, which predates Moses I think. Reading Job backs up Spong's quote -for Job and his contemporaries, there was no return from death, or at least reward after death, and the reward for following God was expected in this life.

Most of Job is discussion of how Job must have sinned to deserve his fate, since God is just. And it turns out that God was 'testing' him.

When Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, he must have been at a similar primitive stage of theological development. The Nephites were in an endless cycle of being good and rewarded by God, then getting proud and evil, then getting punished, then repenting. Success in battle depended on whether the Nephites were good or bad at the time. To me this type of thinking seems simple-minded - especially when Joseph subscribed to the heaven and hell concept at that point.

The ancients were contemplating similar issues to us - if God is all powerful and all good, then how does evil exist. The after-life concept must have been a radical innovation, which solved a lot of problems. I wonder if it had an effect on moral development? Maybe allowing for consideration of over-arching moral principles?

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:41 am
by _Roger Morrison
harmony wrote:I read it, Roger. It just takes me a while to process it. (and I'm trying to wash all my clothes, so I can pack for my trip next week.)

It seems that people nowadays think only in terms of the present... they/we don't think in terms of how what we have (that seems ancient) actually was, when it was young. We bring presentism to every thought we have.


Hi Harmony, I'm with you on the "packing" :-) I've been into it in an organized, scheduled way ;-) over the past 4 days. Wagon 95% packed now, 7:20 PM, rest, including this machine goes in 6:AM then I'm on the way to Florida. Wife left Nov 1, smart gal...

"...thinking in terms of the present...) Good or bad? Could be BIG discussion, eh? I think generally since we live in the present, it deserves the greatest attention IE the time to be kind, happy, helpful, productive, creative, taking initiative, learning, applying; not fretting, fearing, being mean, selfish, abusive, punitive, unpleasant, unhappy, etc. Ya know what I mean?
I agree, we should view the past as being--at one time a present. One that was influenced by understanding & awareness determined by their knowledge base and nurture. In all probability not justified by present circumstances... Great cause of generational disputes in homes & other institutions. None excepted...
Have a safe and pleasant trip to????
Warm regards,
Roger

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:17 am
by _harmony
Roger Morrison wrote:
harmony wrote:I read it, Roger. It just takes me a while to process it. (and I'm trying to wash all my clothes, so I can pack for my trip next week.)

It seems that people nowadays think only in terms of the present... they/we don't think in terms of how what we have (that seems ancient) actually was, when it was young. We bring presentism to every thought we have.


Hi Harmony, I'm with you on the "packing" :-) I've been into it in an organized, scheduled way ;-) over the past 4 days. Wagon 95% packed now, 7:20 PM, rest, including this machine goes in 6:AM then I'm on the way to Florida. Wife left Nov 1, smart gal...

"...thinking in terms of the present...) Good or bad? Could be BIG discussion, eh? I think generally since we live in the present, it deserves the greatest attention IE the time to be kind, happy, helpful, productive, creative, taking initiative, learning, applying; not fretting, fearing, being mean, selfish, abusive, punitive, unpleasant, unhappy, etc. Ya know what I mean?
I agree, we should view the past as being--at one time a present. One that was influenced by understanding & awareness determined by their knowledge base and nurture. In all probability not justified by present circumstances... Great cause of generational disputes in homes & other institutions. None excepted...


It doesn't help that most people don't know the provence of the scriptures. And "most people" includes Joseph Smith. They think/thought they were delivered, whole cloth, with everything directly from God. Which would cause major problems within the church today, were it universally known that the Bible was a mishmash of writings over centuries, and most of the authors aren't the ones named on the books. Which creates a huge blob on Joseph's copybook, since it's obvious he did indeed copy it, instead of having much, if any, revelations. The books of Moses and Abraham are just a mess, if one understands how the original stories came about.

Have a safe and pleasant trip to????


Idaho, on my annual anniversary trip. Should be lovely with all that snow in the mountains.

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:19 am
by _Roger Morrison
Hi Danna, thanks for the Job thought. A confirmation of Spong's thinking as you point out. You said, into which I'll inject in this:

[quote] When Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, he must have been at a similar primitive stage of theological development. Actually the common state then and even now with the die-hards. The Nephites were in an endless cycle of being good and rewarded by God, then getting proud and evil, then getting punished, then repenting. Success in battle depended on whether the Nephites were good or bad at the time. To me this type of thinking seems simple-minded - especially when Joseph subscribed to the heaven and hell concept at that point. And solidified it with his Temple theorizing into Kolob, the Prexistance and the Three Heaven immortality.

The ancients were contemplating similar issues to us - if God is all powerful and all good, then how does evil exist. The after-life concept must have been a radical innovation, which solved a lot of problems. A new lie to address an old lie?? I wonder if it had an effect on moral development? Maybe allowing for consideration of over-arching moral principles? Good question. But, I think not, or we would have a more moral, ethical world than we do.
Looks like Daniel contrasts with Job, which predates Moses I think. Reading Job backs up Spong's quote -for Job and his contemporaries, there was no return from death, or at least reward after death, and the reward for following God was expected in this life.
Since there is no other life, the law of cause-&-effect must be experienced here, as it unavoidably is.

How long before Christianism in general & Mormonism specifically will see the truth??

NZ, eh? I have a Grandaughter (Canadian) who graduated from Aukland U. (I think) who is now teaching High School in NZ. Not sure where. Where are you located? She LOVES NZ!

Warm regards,

Roger

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:03 am
by _Brackite
Hello all Here,

The Ancient Egyptians had a very strong belief, in the after-life.

Please Check Out and See:


Wikipedia:
Ancient Egyptian religion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion


Egyptian Afterlife Ceremonies, Sarcophagi, Burial Masks:

Ancient Egyptian civilization was based on religion; their belief in the rebirth after death became their driving force behind their funeral practices.

http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptafterlife.html



And:


Egyptology Online:
The concept of the afterlife:
http://www.egyptologyonline.com/the_afterlife.htm

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:13 am
by _Roger Morrison
Thanks Brackite. Interesting stuff. Confirms the genius of the human imagination. Forever at work. It knows no end; takes us into space; contrives conspiracies, and invents "Gods".

That the heights of modern technology live in the shadows of superstition does make me wonder if and/or when will we leave theism with its primitive past?

Warm regards,

Roger :-)

Re: Spong on Bible's evolution

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:20 am
by _Ray A
Roger Morrison wrote:How long before Christianism in general & Mormonism specifically will see the truth??


Give it another 2,000 years, Roger.