Maklelan: MAD's Version of Mark Hofmann?

[_Jesse Pinkman]

I want to know if you believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you refuse to answer that simple question, I'll leave it up to your fellow-Mormons here to judge your failure to respond. And by the way, I've had Mormons track me down on Facebook and elsewhere. So what? If you don't want people looking at what you post about yourself or your beliefs, take it down - you are all over the internet.

Just curious...why do you think that he wouldn't?

[_Servant]

In connection with my query above as to whether the Mormon scholar, maklelan, believes in the physical resurrection from the dead by the Lord Jesus Christ, I'd like to know if ANY Mormons on this forum believe in Christ's resurrection, or do all refuse to affirm that central Christian doctrine?

[_Servant]

I want to know if you believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you refuse to answer that simple question, I'll leave it up to your fellow-Mormons here to judge your failure to respond. And by the way, I've had Mormons track me down on Facebook and elsewhere. So what? If you don't want people looking at what you post about yourself or your beliefs, take it down - you are all over the internet.

Just curious...why do you think that he wouldn't?

Simply because of his statements here and elsewhere. Do you believe in Christ's resurrection (bodily) from the death?

[_Jesse Pinkman]

Simply because of his statements here and elsewhere. Do you believe in Christ's resurrection (bodily) from the death?

That's cool. I haven't read much of what he has written. I just got the gist that he was a believer, so it seemed like a given.

Me? Yeah. I'm a firm believer in Jesus being able to resurrect himself. He is the miracle dude!

[_Servant]

Simply because of his statements here and elsewhere. Do you believe in Christ's resurrection (bodily) from the death?

That's cool. I haven't read much of what he has written. I just got the gist that he was a believer, so it seemed like a given.

Me? Yeah. I'm a firm believer in Jesus being able to resurrect himself. He is the miracle dude!

Thank you for affirming your faith in Christ's resurrection.

[Guest]

Here is one statement made by Maklelan right on this board:

"So nobody has to go into apologetic mode to explain why Christ's prophecy that the eschaton would happen within one generation of his own lifetime wasn't fulfilled? Nobody needs to explain away his comments about not being worthy if they love their family more than the gospel? Nobody needs to explain away the idea that castrating yourself is admirable? Nobody needs to defend the notion that Christ rose from the dead? Nobody needs to defend the notion that the Bible is wholly and completely without error of any kind? Nobody needs to defend the virgin birth? These things don't need to be defended simply because Christ is the founder? That's not true at all. The only reason mainstream Christianity doesn't have to operate in "apologetic overdrive" is because these particular crazy things have been a conventionalized part of western culture for centuries." (link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22595&start=21) - my underlining emphasis.

These comments are directed toward the Scriptures. Now, as far as I understand, isn't the Bible one of the "Standard Works" of the Mormons? Is belief in the Bible any part of Mormonism at all? Or is casting doubt on its contents embraced by the LDS? When you include the bodily resurrection of Christ in "these particular (sic) crazy things" I think this raises a giant red flag.

Now if folks deny the central feature of the Christian narrative, Christ's resurrection, that is their business. However, it is NOT their business to come to CARM and other sites "correcting" everybody, under the pretense of being an authority, without disclosing one's personal stand on such an important issue. People tend to see things based on their personal belief system - for instance an atheist might spend a lifetime seeing flaws in the Gospel, while a believer sees the affirmation of God's intervention in time and space through Jesus Christ.

Background and beliefs can't help but have an effect on a person's intellectual conclusions. That's why I believe, personally, that if a man comes to us and wants to "teach" us, we have a right to know where he's coming from. It's as simple as that. Why not be honest about personal beliefs? Mine are on the record. I'm an evangelical, strongly believe in the Bible as God's Word to men, and believe it contains all things necessary for salvation. In ecclesiastical terms, I'm an Anglican and believe in the Apostolic Succession of authority and sacred tradition. If anybody has any questions about my personal beliefs, I'll answer them here or elsewhere. I'm not afraid to do so.

[_maklelan]

I want to know if you believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And I have told you literally dozens of times exactly why I will not play your games. You don't seem to care.

If you refuse to answer that simple question, I'll leave it up to your fellow Mormons here to judge your failure to respond. And by the way, I've had Mormons track me down on Facebook and elsewhere. So what? If you don't want people looking at what you post about yourself or your beliefs, take it down! You seem to love publicizing yourself.

You misunderstand. I really don't care that you looked at my LinkedIn profile. I was pointing it out because you've been griping about how much defenders of Mormonism are wasting their, while you've been making good use of your retirement years. I wouldn't call cyberstalking me to be a good use of your time, but you literally waste most of your day vomiting up bigotry all over the internet, so your gauge of what is and isn't a good use of your time obviously has some calibration issues.

[Guest]

Here is one statement made by maklelan right on this board:

"So nobody has to go into apologetic mode to explain why Christ's prophecy that the eschaton would happen within one generation of his own lifetime wasn't fulfilled? Nobody needs to explain away his comments about not being worthy if they love their family more than the gospel? Nobody needs to explain away the idea that castrating yourself is admirable? Nobody needs to defend the notion that Christ rose from the dead? Nobody needs to defend the notion that the Bible is wholly and completely without error of any kind? Nobody needs to defend the virgin birth? These things don't need to be defended simply because Christ is the founder? That's not true at all. The only reason mainstream Christianity doesn't have to operate in "apologetic overdrive" is because these particular crazy things have been a conventionalized part of western culture for centuries." (link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22595&start=21) - my underlining emphasis.

These comments are directed toward the Scriptures. Now, as far as I understand, isn't the Bible one of the "Standard Works" of the Mormons? Is belief in the Bible any part of Mormonism at all? Or is casting doubt on its contents embraced by the LDS? When you include the bodily resurrection of Christ in "these particular (sic) crazy things" I think this raises a giant red flag.

I think believing in a talking donkey raises a red flag, but trying to get you to engage concerns with your worldview is like trying to pull teeth with just your mind.

Now if folks deny the central feature of the Christian narrative, Christ's resurrection, that is their business. However, it is NOT their business to come to CARM and other sites "correcting" everybody, under the pretense of being an authority, without disclosing one's personal stand on such an important issue.

Why wouldn't it be my business? I can correct whatever I want for any reason I want. My personal religious faith has nothing whatsoever to do with my criticisms of your fundie worldview, and I've proven that time and time again directly to you. You're just groping around the internet looking for some way to score rhetorical points against me. Remember when you took my comments about Gen 4:1 to several other message boards to try to spark some vitriol against me? Remember how you were never able to engage my actual comments or my evidence?

And Mormons are wasting their time. Yeah, right.

People tend to see things based on their personal belief system - for instance an atheist might spend a lifetime seeing flaws in the Gospel, while a believer sees the affirmation of God's intervention in time and space through Jesus Christ.

Background and beliefs can't help but have an effect on a person's intellectual conclusions. That's why I believe, personally, that if a man comes to us and wants to "teach" us, we have a right to know where he's coming from.

I've explained precisely how my background influences my conclusions on numerous occasions, and you've ignored me each and every time, primarily because it doesn't give you any excuse to just dismiss arguments that are way over your head. Quit pretending you have a good reason for any of this, Catherine. You get a kick out of slaking your bigotry. It's as simple and as sad as that.

It's as simple as that. Why not be honest about personal beliefs?

I am honest about them. I've also explained exactly why I'm not going to be feeding the trolls at CARM or anywhere else. You're not an honest person, Catherine, and you have no intention of ever being honest and open with me. You are about nothing other than your sectarianism and your hatred, and you are obviously not about to change that.

Mine are on the record.

And yet even you are not honest about them. Your repeated attempts to disassociate yourself from fundamentalism have failed at every turn, even as you've asserted your unquestioning belief in a talking donkey.

I'm an evangelical, strongly believe in the Bible as God's Word to men, and believe it contains all things necessary for salvation. In ecclesiastical terms, I'm an Anglican and believe in the Apostolic Succession of authority and sacred tradition. If anybody has any questions about my personal beliefs, I'll answer them here or elsewhere. I'm not afraid to do so.

Nor am I. I've explained my beliefs to you many, many, many times over the last six or seven years, but you've always ignored me because they've never been rhetorically useful for you. Now you're just whining and griping because you think you've found something rhetorically damaging.

[Guest]

Here is one statement made by McClellan right on this board:

"So nobody has to go into apologetic mode to explain why Christ's prophecy that the eschaton would happen within one generation of his own lifetime wasn't fulfilled? Nobody needs to explain away his comments about not being worthy if they love their family more than the gospel? Nobody needs to explain away the idea that castrating yourself is admirable? Nobody needs to defend the notion that Christ rose from the dead? Nobody needs to defend the notion that the Bible is wholly and completely without error of any kind? Nobody needs to defend the virgin birth? These things don't need to be defended simply because Christ is the founder? That's not true at all. The only reason mainstream Christianity doesn't have to operate in "apologetic overdrive" is because these particular crazy things have been a conventionalized part of western culture for centuries." (link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22595&start=21) - my underlining emphasis.

These comments are directed toward the Scriptures. Now, as far as I understand, isn't the Bible one of the "Standard Works" of the Mormons? Is belief in the Bible any part of Mormonism at all? Or is casting doubt on its contents embraced by the LDS? When you include the bodily resurrection of Christ in "these particular (sic) crazy things" I think this raises a giant red flag.

I think believing in a talking donkey raises a red flag, but trying to get you to engage concerns with your worldview is like trying to pull teeth with just your mind.

Now if folks deny the central feature of the Christian narrative, Christ's resurrection, that is their business. However, it is NOT their business to come to CARM and other sites "correcting" everybody, under the pretense of being an authority, without disclosing one's personal stand on such an important issue.

Why wouldn't it be my business? I can correct whatever I want for any reason I want. My personal religious faith has nothing whatsoever to do with my criticisms of your fundie worldview, and I've proven that time and time again directly to you. You're just groping around the internet looking for some way to score rhetorical points against me. Remember when you took my comments about Gen 4:1 to several other message boards to try to spark some vitriol against me? Remember how you were never able to engage my actual comments or my evidence?

And Mormons are wasting their time. Yeah, right.

People tend to see things based on their personal belief system - for instance an atheist might spend a lifetime seeing flaws in the Gospel, while a believer sees the affirmation of God's intervention in time and space through Jesus Christ.

Background and beliefs can't help but have an effect on a person's intellectual conclusions. That's why I believe, personally, that if a man comes to us and wants to "teach" us, we have a right to know where he's coming from.

I've explained precisely how my background influences my conclusions on numerous occasions, and you've ignored me each and every time, primarily because it doesn't give you any excuse to just dismiss arguments that are way over your head. Quit pretending you have a good reason for any of this, Catherine. You get a kick out of slaking your bigotry. It's as simple and as sad as that.

It's as simple as that. Why not be honest about personal beliefs?

I am honest about them. I've also explained exactly why I'm not going to be feeding the trolls at CARM or anywhere else. You're not an honest person, Catherine, and you have no intention of ever being honest and open with me. You are about nothing other than your sectarianism and your hatred, and you are obviously not about to change that.

Mine are on the record.

And yet even you are not honest about them. Your repeated attempts to disassociate yourself from fundamentalism have failed at every turn, even as you've asserted your unquestioning belief in a talking donkey.

I'm an evangelical, strongly believe in the Bible as God's Word to men, and believe it contains all things necessary for salvation. In ecclesiastical terms, I'm an Anglican and believe in the Apostolic Succession of authority and sacred tradition. If anybody has any questions about my personal beliefs, I'll answer them here or elsewhere. I'm not afraid to do so.

Nor am I. I've explained my beliefs to you many, many, many times over the last six or seven years, but you've always ignored me because they've never been rhetorically useful for you. Now you're just whining and griping because you think you've found something rhetorically damaging.

No, you haven't honestly explained your beliefs. You just run around presenting yourself as an authority all over the net. In fact, I happened to be on Mormon Coffee the other day researching an issue for a post on CARM, and low and behold, I found your comments in the comment section. They went on and on, until finally Aaron posted this:

"Aaron Shafovaloff says:
July 6, 2011 at 4:44 pm

"Daniel writes (in the deleted comment),

'The ECFs were not Mormons, nor did they teach Mormon doctrines. My first ever publication in biblical studies was a warning to Latter-day Saints not to try to find LDS ideologies in Patristic literature.”

Thank you for that much, Daniel. Now what’s left is for you to reveal (and give a basic defense for) your own personal Mormon theology. Until then, no posting privileges. Put your cards on the table. ' "

Here's the link: http://blog.mrm.org/2011/06/clarifying- ... nt-page-2/

So apparently, I'm in good company (since I have great respect for Aaron as a very honest and fair human being) regarding the need for you to CLARIFY WHAT YOUR OWN BELIEFS ARE.

Furthermore, do you accept the Biblical narrative of Christ's resurrection from the dead as a real occurrence?

[Guest]

Frankly, folks, I don't give a gosh darn if maklelan is a Wiccan and worships under a full moon somewhere out in a Utah forest! So what? This is a free country, he can be whatever he wants to be! However, when one presents himself as an authority, and comes to known Christian apologetic sites to "teach" us, then I believe most THINKING POSTERS have a right to know where McClellan stands in terms of his personal theological beliefs.

And I still want to know if Maklelan believes in Christ's bodily resurrection from the dead, even if the Mormons here don't really seem to be interested. I'm a Christian, and regardless of how maklelan attempts to call me a "fundie" or whatever other derogatory hyperbole he wishes to apply to me, the fact is the resurrection of Christ is the central teaching of the Gospel. To deny it has grave consequences, at least within the Christian community. I'm beginning to wonder about the Mormons - isn't it important to you guys?