DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

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_antishock8
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _antishock8 »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:Would you mind expounding on this a bit more?


I'll do my best.

Since the Mormon system was founded on conspiracy and criminal behavior, everyone who is involved in that legacy, unless they happen to be charlatans themselves, is bound to suffer the effects of such an abusive relationship. One finds that the entire organization has a cliquish mentality, where bits of gossip are stored and doled out according to the power and pleasure it gives the teller.

Most people will always be on the outside, struggling to prove their worthiness for the secrets of the inner sanctum. They imagine that there must be profound doctrines or hidden bits of knowledge that the hierarchy have waiting for them, if they but suffer the current indignities like good soldiers. Then, if they should happen to "arrive," they find that all they have won is the power to control the kind of information that old folks on porches use to torment their neighbors.

The apologist, like others, has felt this sting and disappointment, but turns it in two directions. First, they concoct new mysteries and revelations to fill the emptiness that ensues when they realize that the Brethren have no deep mysteries to share of the kind they hoped to learn. Secondly, they become enraged should anyone whom they feel has not paid the price and earned the Brethren's trust dares to speak about Mormonism in a way they disapprove of--be that person critic or chapel Mormon. The Brethren, because they still hold the power, are insulated from the rage of the Mopologist, who, being abused but nominally rewarded, is not yet powerful enough to direct his rage at its true object.


This basically sounds like trauma-bonding. You have an abusive, judgemental authority figure that has attained an archetypical role in the lives of Mormons. When the curtain is pulled back, and it's simply an old man pulling some strings and playing an organ, the abused generally follow two courses:

1) Leave that particular abusive relationship (this doesn't mean the abused will "recover" from the mental and emtional state of being a cultist, though).

2) Enable it.

What's disappointing are the numbers of people who go from being abused to abusers/deceivers themselves. I suppose it's the various attachments, ie, social and economic, that they've developed that are hard to sever, because, we know for a fact that you do, indeed, sever these relationships when you leave a cult like Mormonism.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _Kishkumen »

antishock8 wrote:This basically sounds like trauma-bonding. You have an abusive, judgemental authority figure that has attained an archetypical role in the lives of Mormons.


Excellent, as8! Joseph Smith was the master of trauma-bonding. He used the "voice of God" to bully his followers into compliance with his desires. Dare step out of line? Well, "God" is going to threaten you, and if you don't listen there will be dire consequences. Sometimes he would just randomly dress down some poor sod like Brigham Young, bringing the poor person to tears, and all as some kind of perverse "test." The same practices continue on a more subdued level today.

antishock8 wrote:When the curtain is pulled back, and it's simply an old man pulling some strings and playing an organ, the abused generally follow two courses:

1) Leave that particular abusive relationship (this doesn't mean the abused will "recover" from the mental and emtional state of being a cultist, though).

2) Enable it.


I would add 3) become an abuser. This is clearly the route that Brigham Young and James Strang took. Some Mormon leaders who understood this well, even if only on a subconscious level, were men like Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, and now Boyd K. Packer.

antishock8 wrote:What's disappointing are the numbers of people who go from being abused to abusers/deceivers themselves. I suppose it's the various attachments, ie, social and economic, that they've developed that are hard to sever, because, we know for a fact that you do, indeed, sever these relationships when you leave a cult like Mormonism.


Yes, one would think that those who suffer would break the cycle of abuse, but time and again they mimetically inflict it upon others. Mormonism is no exception.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_harmony
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I find all of this very troubling and disturbing.


What do you mean by "this"?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Lamanite
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _Lamanite »

Kishkumen wrote:He used the "voice of God" to bully his followers into compliance with his desires. Dare step out of line? Well, "God" is going to threaten you, and if you don't listen there will be dire consequences.


Not sure if you have a Call for reference policy on this board, but CFR anyway.

Let me know which "history" we're using, the "real" one or the "correlated" one. And how to define, find, and separate the two. Is it only non-Mormons who comprise the "real" history? Or can we sneak in a gay Apostate genius like Quinn? Or can we pull from Andrew Ehat and Jessee. How about Arrington, Bitton, and Davis. I'm sure Bushman is off limits. How about Vogel, I like Vogel. I've got some Jan Shipps love goin on over here.

Will the "real" Joseph Smith please stand up! *said in the Voice of Slim Shady, Aftermath*

Big UP!

Lamanite
_Kishkumen
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _Kishkumen »

Lamanite wrote:Not sure if you have a Call for reference policy on this board, but CFR anyway.


I direct you to the D&C, presumably an important part of your canon of scripture, which is full of these antics. Exhibit A, section 132.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Bond James Bond
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _Bond James Bond »

The Mormons are the minority in this relationship (between the mainstream Christians and Mormons) so it seems natural they would be the ones that would be hounded. The Christians have numerical superiority, so they have nothing to strive for except to bring about religious homogeny. The Mormons on the Net seem to have their hands full defending themselves (in part because of numbers, in part because they have a terrible set of facts to start with). Thus I wouldn't expect much proactive Mormon stuff on the Net except for the occasional sortie launched from a Mormon apologetic site.

Of course the main Mormon conversion thrust is the missionaries. Perhaps they will someday make a concerted effort to do it via the Net but it will probably lead to another ldsnet.org "talk to a missionary" type fiasco where the poor missionaries got ambushed by various critics (including myself a couple times when I was bored :twisted: ).
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

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This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Lamanite
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _Lamanite »

Kishkumen wrote:
Lamanite wrote:Not sure if you have a Call for reference policy on this board, but CFR anyway.


I direct you to the D&C, presumably an important part of your canon of scripture, which is full of these antics. Exhibit A, section 132.



A few things here:

1. It's interesting that the section begins with the mention of OT Prophets. When we view Joseph through the eyes of a believer, we see Joseph as a Prophet sent to restore both OT and NT doctrines, principles, institutions etc. So it is no surprise that as God reveals his word through Joseph in the form of Hell, Fire, and Brimstone, just as the ancient Church did.

2. You mention these "antics" without also recognizing the incredibly touching scriptures that express God's love for us, and all mankind. This was also revealed through the "bullying" Prophet. But you intentionally neglect to mention these scriptures so that you can continue to paint a extremely distorted picture of a Prophet and of Gods Church.

3. This section is also extremely legalistic. Concerning itself with laws and punishments. It is a fairly natural course (with precedent in the OT and NT) to require a commandment and also provide its associated punishment.

Big UP!

Lamanite
_Kishkumen
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _Kishkumen »

Lamanite wrote:A few things here:


This is a fine example of missing the forest for the trees. The big picture here is that "God" (really Joseph) threatened Emma with damnation, if she would not consent to allow him to sleep with whatever virgin girls he wanted. The rest is just window dressing.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Lamanite
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _Lamanite »

Kishkumen wrote:
Lamanite wrote:A few things here:


This is a fine example of missing the forest for the trees. The big picture here is that "God" (really Joseph) threatened Emma with damnation, if she would not consent to allow him to sleep with whatever virgin girls he wanted. The rest is just window dressing.


And Emma was pissed off and vacillated between acceptance and outrage. Emotionally I side with Emma. Spiritually I accept Joseph as a Prophet. And he was acting as a Prophet, no "just his opinion" loophole here. So there is a conflict within me, that needs resolution. I just won't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I just cool my heels, waiting for further instruction.

But the BIG picture, is grand and sweeping and extends far beyond what you can presently see.

Big UP!

Lamanite
_harmony
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Re: DCP Accuses Christian Ministries of "Greed"

Post by _harmony »

Lamanite wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:He used the "voice of God" to bully his followers into compliance with his desires. Dare step out of line? Well, "God" is going to threaten you, and if you don't listen there will be dire consequences.


Not sure if you have a Call for reference policy on this board, but CFR anyway.

Let me know which "history" we're using, the "real" one or the "correlated" one. And how to define, find, and separate the two. Is it only non-Mormons who comprise the "real" history? Or can we sneak in a gay Apostate genius like Quinn? Or can we pull from Andrew Ehat and Jessee. How about Arrington, Bitton, and Davis. I'm sure Bushman is off limits. How about Vogel, I like Vogel. I've got some Jan Shipps love goin on over here.

Will the "real" Joseph Smith please stand up! *said in the Voice of Slim Shady, Aftermath*

Big UP!

Lamanite


You can certainly call for references at any time. You may not like what is provided. We tend to accept a much wider group of references than MAD does, since we tend to think that wisdom is not confined to the heirarchy of the LDS church.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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