DiscussMormonism.com

Ray said:

The term "Liahona" means one who does not feel bound to follow the prophets in every instance, nor even take the scriptures literally, and who might be characterised by JFS and Harold B. Lee as those who "live by the lamp of their own conceit".

This phrase struck me as very important. How many apostles "live by the lamp of their own conceit", yet chastise the rank and file member who does the same? Is not the lowest member to be served by the leaders? Is not service the mandate of all of our leaders, from the lowliest bishop to the highest ranking member of the 12? Has this been forgotten? Lost in the waves of hubris eminating from SLCentral?

Leaders who lead from the perspective that they are uncriticizable, as Elder Oaks has said, surely are well on the way to Unrighteous Dominion Land.

God is watching us. He's watching our leaders and the way they treat those of us under their stewardship. I wish justice was a little swifter.

What??

I don't know what kind of hours a GA works, but I can imagine it is A LOT!!

There are far easier ways to get rich.

GBH was constantly travelling and serving in his own way as best as he could. What do you expect from him??

Other than Packer, I see the rest of the 12 as very humble men with genuine concern for the welfare of our lives and souls. Perhaps I am a sucker and they are playing me for a fool.

Scottie wrote:What??

I don't know what kind of hours a GA works, but I can imagine it is A LOT!!

There are far easier ways to get rich.

GBH was constantly travelling and serving in his own way as best as he could. What do you expect from him??

Other than Packer, I see the rest of the 12 as very humble men with genuine concern for the welfare of our lives and souls. Perhaps I am ae sucker and they are playing me for a fool.

What do I expect from Pres Hinckley? Nothing; he's dead.

What do I expect from our current leaders? A whole lot more than I'm getting. I expect honesty, compassion, empathy, tolerance, humility. What do I see? I see hidden agendas and closed books. I see people starving and great and spacious buildings, all on the same block. I see billion dollar business CEOs instead of humble spiritual leaders. I see leaders more concerned with appearances than with broken hearts. I see leaders who have lost touch with the rank and file, who will not hear a word of criticism... moreover who demand loyalty and respect they have not earned. I see leaders who are more concerned with their bottom line than they are with any genuine concern for the welfare of anyone, member or nonmember.

I see leaders who live by the lamp of their own conceit, instead of humbly seeking God's guidance in serving those over whom they have stewardship.

harmony wrote:

Scottie wrote:What??

I don't know what kind of hours a GA works, but I can imagine it is A LOT!!

There are far easier ways to get rich.

GBH was constantly travelling and serving in his own way as best as he could. What do you expect from him??

Other than Packer, I see the rest of the 12 as very humble men with genuine concern for the welfare of our lives and souls. Perhaps I am ae sucker and they are playing me for a fool.

What do I expect from Pres Hinckley? Nothing; he's dead.

What do I expect from our current leaders? A whole lot more than I'm getting. I expect honesty, compassion, empathy, tolerance, humility. What do I see? I see hidden agendas and closed books. I see people starving and great and spacious buildings, all on the same block. I see billion dollar business CEOs instead of humble spiritual leaders. I see leaders more concerned with appearances than with broken hearts. I see leaders who have lost touch with the rank and file, who will not hear a word of criticism... moreover who demand loyalty and respect they have not earned. I see leaders who are more concerned with their bottom line than they are with any genuine concern for the welfare of anyone, member or nonmember.

I see leaders who live by the lamp of their own conceit, instead of humbly seeking God's guidance in serving those over whom they have stewardship.

I love your passion!

Do you have a proposed solution?

Scottie wrote:I love your passion!

Do you have a proposed solution?

Sure, not that anyone will ever hear it:

1. Open the books and restore the trust that's been missing for almost 50 years. Even if they don't know it, the members have been and are being cheated.

2. Develop a mechanism by which rank and file members will be regularly accessed by leaders from the highest level. Get past their hero worship and actually listen to what the members say, even when what they say is not what you want to hear.

3. Live humbly, acknowledging that your roof and your daily bread comes from the labor of others.

4. Listen to those who have been hurt by the church. Get past their anger and actually hear the underlying pain.

5. Address the dysfunctional aspects of Mormon culture. Nothing is exempt.

6. Treat all members alike.

harmony, sometimes you strike me as one of the most judgmental people I've ever encountered in my life. Quite seriously. I hope you're not like this with people you actually know, in your actual off-line interactions.

I've had at least some dealing with every member of the current Quorum of the Twelve and the current First Presidency, and with several past members of those quorums. In some cases, I've had a fair amount of contact with them. I'm a reasonably decent judge of character, I think, and I've found them -- and I emphatically include President Packer in this; I've spent time with him in his home and elsewhere (my first personal encounter with him being all the way back in early 1974, in Switzerland) -- to be, in every case, kind, modest, dedicated, hard-working, and sincere men. They don't deserve your casually self-righteous censure.

You may well be a kind and charitable person off-line. I certainly hope so. But your zest for negatively judging people you don't know -- anonymously and publicly, no less -- is extraordinarily unseemly.

Daniel Peterson wrote: I'm a reasonably decent judge of character, I think, and I've found them -- and I emphatically include President Packer in this; I've spent time with him in his home and elsewhere (my first personal encounter with him being all the way back in early 1974, in Switzerland) -- to be, in every case, kind, modest, dedicated, hard-working, and sincere men. They don't deserve your casually self-righteous censure.

I've found this to be the case with most people. But what doth lie behind human kindness? A whited sepluchre of utter condemnation for how others live? Packer's "cateogries" of "dangers for the Church" spells what a bigot he really is.

And who was the Nazi who was a total gentleman, yet thought nothing of slaughtering Jews?

Ray A wrote:I've found this to be the case with most people. But what doth lie behind human kindness? A whited sepluchre of utter condemnation for how others live? Packer's "cateogries" of "dangers for the Church" spells what a bigot he really is.

And who was the Nazi who was a total gentleman, yet thought nothing of slaughtering Jews?

You sadden me, Ray.

Anyway, I know President Packer, and I know the others, and I won't -- can't -- stand by silently while they're slandered.

But, of course, I also can't stop those who want to slander them.

Daniel Peterson wrote:You sadden me, Ray.

I'm sorry. I apologise for being born.

Ray A wrote:I'm sorry. I apologise for being born.

Accepted.