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The apologetic coup has taken an important next step with the 2008 Summer Joseph Smith seminar. Earlier in the year, there was much speculation about how this event would be played. Now in retrospect we have some answers. For a good summary of the "seminar" see a Blogger named Ben:

http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/notes ... ar-part-1/

The chilling results of the conference would have the apologists using their increasing skill set of buying time in the academic spotlight to establish credibility with Chapel Mormonism and evangelize to them.

Ben wrote:First, I think it is important to point out that this seminar was quite different than previous Bushman seminars. This time, rather than inviting grad students (though one was still accepted), Bushman brought in LDS instructors: Institute teachers, Church Curriculum writers, and BYU Religious Department professors.

We know that some big funds were made available for those who were tapped, what better call could have been made than to pass the bucks on to the desired base of recruits --- let them be paid to do exercises steeped in Internet Mormonism.

Speaking of a presentation by Robert Lund,

Ben wrote:Also, probably the most disappointing point of his presentation is that he fell back on the “Joseph Smith’s promises concerning the bank were conditional upon the people’s faithfulness” argument, which seemed to go against the very kind of “acknowledging fault” approach this seminar was going for. However, coming from an individual who didn’t appear to have any background in scholarly writing or research, I was impressed with his effort. Heck, if all of our curriculum writers were willing admit that Joseph made some faults in the endeavor, which Lund did several times, I would be more than happy. Given the circumstances, I think this is a good starting step for gentlemen like him as well as for CES personnel if they incorporate these types of views (

The first wobbling steps of a future apologist and Internet Mormon?

I really found this report quite shocking and I'm left in utter awe of Richard Bushman, who might be the most significant apologist ever to live. The man is a professional, a visionary, and a stark contrast to the game-playing and middle-school humor apologetics associated with Skinny-L, Shields, and often FARMS and FAIR.

Bringing in CES workers and Institute teachers, paying them and treating them like scholars, and essentially giving them a hands-on workshop in Internet Mormon apologetics. Cunning. Brilliant. And I'm at a loss of words.

Gadianton wrote:Bringing in CES workers and Institute teachers, paying them and treating them like scholars, and essentially giving them a hands-on workshop in Internet Mormon apologetics. Cunning. Brilliant. And I'm at a loss of words.

Wow, that's quite a coup. Rather than denying the existence of Chapel Mormons--or, more typically, denying that Chapel Mormonism was ever taught in any place by anyone in any context at any time--he brings them onboard for an internship of sorts.

I wonder how the "Joseph-Smith’s-promises-concerning-the-bank-were-conditional-upon-the-people’s-faithfulness" guy felt when Bushman told him that Joseph was dead wrong, that the bank actually failed due to regular ol' humdrum, ordinary, run-of-the-mill, naturalistic human mismanagement?

Dr. Shades wrote:
I wonder how the "Joseph-Smith’s-promises-concerning-the-bank-were-conditional-upon-the-people’s-faithfulness" guy felt when Bushman told him that Joseph was dead wrong, that the bank actually failed due to regular ol' humdrum, ordinary, run-of-the-mill, naturalistic human mismanagement?

How about..."Isn't it wonderful that God gives His servants these learning experiences so they can grow? It also provided opportunity to try the faith of the saints, to separate the wheat from the chaff. It's almost like God planned it that way."

It's the same thing with Zion's Camp. "No, Zion's Camp didn't fail; it provided valuable training experience for men who would later be leaders in the Church."

cinepro wrote:It's the same thing with Zion's Camp. "No, Zion's Camp didn't fail; it provided valuable training experience for men who would later be leaders in the Church."

Interesting. I guess that means that in 50 years we'll hear people say, "The church was always fully in favor of gay marriage; the whole Proposition 8 thing was merely to test the obedience of the Saints, not to deny homosexuals equal rights."

Well, to be quite honest, I think women have been waiting longer than gays have, for justice. But that's just me, living by the lamp of my own conceit.

I wonder how the "Joseph-Smith’s-promises-concerning-the-bank-were-conditional-upon-the-people’s-faithfulness" guy felt when Bushman told him that Joseph was dead wrong, that the bank actually failed due to regular ol' humdrum, ordinary, run-of-the-mill, naturalistic human mismanagement?

That's a very good question. I had a business teacher in high school who gave a lecture I'll never forget where he explained his tactic of "making you think you thought of it".

Forgive me if you're not a Lost fan, but in one of the last episodes of season 4, Ben, John Locke, and Hurley are trying to find Jacob. At one point Hurley is given the choice to continue with the search or to go back. He chooses to continue, and Ben, the arch manipulator of manipulators congratulates John, an aspiring manipulator (who feigns offense at the compliment), on making Hurley think it was his decision to continue on.

So I guess, what I'm thinking is that the last thing Bushman is going to do here is just lay out a bunch of offensive Internet Mormonism. He isn't going to "tell the guy" or anyone else the secret doctrines of the Internet Mormon. But rather, through a well-orchestrated system of workshops, get the inductee to discover Internet Mormonism himself --- put him in the maze and let him figure his own way out, the inductee believing he's making original insights and progress on purplexing problems when really the solutions have already been determined and the course already charted.

LOL. Gad, you don't know jack about manipulation.

Dude, what do you mean?

harmony wrote:Well, to be quite honest, I think women have been waiting longer than gays have, for justice. But that's just me, living by the lamp of my own conceit.

Yeah, you might want to stop that.