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at anyone who actually tries to have an intellectual discussion of LDS church history or topics. They plug their ears and mumble 'testimony/testimony/testimony' or similar. Most I know won't actually discuss anything and get mad when actual quotes or writings of earlier church leaders and publications are brought up.

What are they afraid of? Don't they believe Joseph Smiths statements that 'the gospel' includes all truth?

at anyone who actually tries to have an intellectual discussion of LDS church history or topics. They plug their ears and mumble 'testimony/testimony/testimony' or similar.

I don't think I've ever done that (or similar) in my whole life.

Most I know won't actually discuss anything and get mad when actual quotes or writings of earlier church leaders and publications are brought up.

I simply remind you what is and is not doctrine as per the Church's own statements. You have a vested interest in pet theories, therefore, you avoid the Church's own statments all the while complaining the Church has no such statement.

What are they afraid of? Don't they believe Joseph Smiths statements that 'the gospel' includes all truth?

I believe it. One of the truths is that homosexual acts are sin.

Once again, a good example of the difference between a chapel Mormon and an internet Mormon.

IM's are thrilled to discuss problematic issues. CM's get pissed and see it as an attack on their faith.

squawkeye wrote:at anyone who actually tries to have an intellectual discussion of LDS church history or topics. They plug their ears and mumble 'testimony/testimony/testimony' or similar. Most I know won't actually discuss anything and get mad when actual quotes or writings of earlier church leaders and publications are brought up.

What are they afraid of? Don't they believe Joseph Smiths statements that 'the gospel' includes all truth?

What do they fear? That their reality doesn't match the real reality. That their truth sits on a shaky foundation. That their faith in Christ is less than their faith in Joseph... that they placed their salvation in the hands of men, not God.

harmony wrote:What do they fear? That their reality doesn't match the real reality. That their truth sits on a shaky foundation. That their faith in Christ is less than their faith in Joseph... that they placed their salvation in the hands of men, not God.

In my experience, 95% of them will roll their eyes and tell me that I have been duped. That the anti-Mormons have taken things out of context and/or outright lied about church history. Anything bad about the church was originally something good that has been distorted by the anti's.

bcspace wrote:I don't think I've ever done that (or similar) in my whole life.

Most Mormons. I don't know if the figure is 95%, but it's definitely at least half, and probably over 75%, if my experience is any indication.

I simply remind you what is and is not doctrine as per the Church's own statements. You have a vested interest in pet theories, therefore, you avoid the Church's own statments all the while complaining the Church has no such statement.

Of course the Church is going to say that the most unpalatable things its leaders have taught are not doctrine. The question is, does this jibe with what the Church thinks are sources of truth? The critic would say, no.

I believe it. One of the truths is that homosexual acts are sin.

Mormonism is a sin. Living in Utah is a sin. Not drinking wine is a sin. Not keeping a healthy prostate is a sin. Your mom is a sin.

See how dumb "It's a sin!" arguments are?

What do they fear? That their reality doesn't match the real reality. That their truth sits on a shaky foundation. That their faith in Christ is less than their faith in Joseph... that they placed their salvation in the hands of men, not God.

All religion is based on the initial testimony of men. Mormonism is. Christianity is. The Bible was written and compiled by fallible and self interested in some cases, men. It was a messy process. Your faith and my faith in Christ is only through the written words of men. For a Mormon another set of men claiming to be apostles and prophets is the only difference really.

Jason Bourne wrote:

What do they fear? That their reality doesn't match the real reality. That their truth sits on a shaky foundation. That their faith in Christ is less than their faith in Joseph... that they placed their salvation in the hands of men, not God.

All religion is based on the initial testimony of men. Mormonism is. Christianity is. The Bible was written and compiled by fallible and self interested in some cases, men. It was a messy process. Your faith and my faith in Christ is only through the written words of men. For a Mormon another set of men claiming to be apostles and prophets is the only difference really.

You and I are the same kind of Mormon, Jason. I doubt that is the case with most of the members sitting in my chapel tomorrow morning.

harmony wrote:
You and I are the same kind of Mormon, Jason. I doubt that is the case with most of the members sitting in my chapel tomorrow morning.

Oh I don't know. Even as a more a TBMer I knew this was the case and often argued it with other Christians when they criticized me and said I was elevating Joseph Smith. I said no more than they did Peter, John or Paul.

squawkeye wrote:at anyone who actually tries to have an intellectual discussion of LDS church history or topics. They plug their ears and mumble 'testimony/testimony/testimony' or similar. Most I know won't actually discuss anything and get mad when actual quotes or writings of earlier church leaders and publications are brought up.

What are they afraid of? Don't they believe Joseph Smiths statements that 'the gospel' includes all truth? (emphasis added)

This from a recent post of yours:

All this would be so much simpler if LDS Inc would just dig up the bones of Zelph and prove he really is of Jewish heritage. People would stop laughing and Spencer W. Kimballs statement about our bud 'lamanite' would finally let him know he is one, not a Nephite, since he doesn't believe the statement of a 'prophet' as to what he really is.

I would be happy to have an "intellectual discussion", if you didn't use offensive and inflammatory terms like "LDS Inc", or ridiculous statements about digging up Zelph. You could also stop mocking President Spencer W. Kimball".

Then we could probably have a decent conversation. I don't know about intellectual, but I'd give it my best shot.


Big UP!

Lamanite