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Upon taking a good look at the gay marriage threads I thought of the race issue. Not just for the church but for the country. In the mid 1970's the tax exempt status of the church hung by a thread, thus the new policies (not to be confused with doctrine).

In my minds eye I imagined thirty years from now the Mormons will once again strongly have the lights turned on by the media about gay rights. Tax exempt status might get pulled out again, as the current rumblings of a possible legal battle begin. Precedent will be set and a wedge will be ultimately forged and delivered, cracking the future of Mormonism in two again.

Who knows. Intellectual Mormons and TBM's might form different organizations, thus making an increasingly laughed at religion even more isolated from the mainstream. in 2048 howw will things be different in the church? Women bishops? no. single bishops? sure, why not.

The more the resources are stretched thin the more the utah church will play in cracking down on dissent. Eventually though, the Utah church will have to face the fact that they cannot control their flocks brains as well as they were able to before.

How many kids from the Internet generation have googled "Mormon temple ceremony"?

What are nonmormon parents doing to educate their children about not just Mormonism but most organizations that engage in controlling behavior?

If only my dad had access to the information I had at my disposal. If only my mother had the same. I turn 30 this upcoming year. Its getting to where its time for a reprogramming of a few subsystems embedded in my self.

Its time for Mormonism to do the same.

Upon taking a good look at the gay marriage threads I thought of the race issue. Not just for the church but for the country. In the mid 1970's the tax exempt status of the church hung by a thread, thus the new policies (not to be confused with doctrine).

Lose its tax exempt status? You and others keep making this claim. Can you point me to some evidence please?

In my minds eye I imagined thirty years from now the Mormons will once again strongly have the lights turned on by the media about gay rights. Tax exempt status might get pulled out again, as the current rumblings of a possible legal battle begin. Precedent will be set and a wedge will be ultimately forged and delivered, cracking the future of Mormonism in two again.

Perhaps. But it won't just be the Mormons. It will be the Catholics, the SBS and many other groups as well.

How many kids from the Internet generation have googled "Mormon temple ceremony"?

I imagine a few but not many. Most active LDS kids I do not think are that interested if finding out ahead of time. Mine, when they asked, I gave them a general outline of it.

What are nonmormon parents doing to educate their children about not just Mormonism but most organizations that engage in controlling behavior?

Nothing at all.

Jason Bourne wrote:

In my minds eye I imagined thirty years from now the Mormons will once again strongly have the lights turned on by the media about gay rights. Tax exempt status might get pulled out again, as the current rumblings of a possible legal battle begin. Precedent will be set and a wedge will be ultimately forged and delivered, cracking the future of Mormonism in two again.

Perhaps. But it won't just be the Mormons. It will be the Catholics, the SBS and many other groups as well.

I think you make a really great point, Jason. By the time Standford started its boycott in 69, the Church stood only with radical fringe groups in its racist policy. Which is why it was so notable. Society might be changing, but there is a whole slue of mainstream religious groups that still hold the same position as the Church. The Church has only come to the forefront because it has bags of money to throw at the fight, not because its position is particular.

I assume as society changes, you will more likely witness the bleeding off of membership of these bigoted organizations which will lead to their marginalization. This is only a generation away. Polls show that those in their teens and early twenties have much more tolerant attitudes about homosexuality, even those from conservative upbringing. These kids will change their churches or leave their churches.

Jason Bourne wrote:Lose its tax exempt status? You and others keep making this claim. Can you point me to some evidence please?

The "evidence" is very circumstantial. It comes from two sources: (1) Rex Lee's decision (he was then the U.S. Solicitor General) to recuse himself from involvement in the Bob Jones U. v. IRS case (which dealt with stripping a university of its tax-exempt status for racial policies), and (2) an alleged phone call from Pres. Jimmy Carter to SWK in 1977 implying that the Church could lose its tax-exempt status if it didn't revoke the priesthood ban. As far as I know, there is no concrete evidence that the IRS directly threatened the Church.

But it won't just be the Mormons. It will be the Catholics, the SBS and many other groups as well.

Agreed.

How many kids from the Internet generation have googled "Mormon temple ceremony"?

I imagine a few but not many. Most active LDS kids I do not think are that interested if finding out ahead of time. Mine, when they asked, I gave them a general outline of it.

Interestingly, this very topic is addressed in the Jan. 2009 New Era magazine (the one that just came out), where the following question is asked: "My nonmember friends have talked to me about things that go on in the temple. How do they know about them, and what should I say about them?" The answer states, in part (emphasis mine): "Temple symbols and ordinances have reached the public in various ways over the years, primarily by people who have left the Church. But just because these things are known to people outside the Church does not mean that they are any less sacred."

Here's the full link to the New Era article:

http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... 6f620a____

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

I imagine a few but not many. Most active LDS kids I do not think are that interested if finding out ahead of time. Mine, when they asked, I gave them a general outline of it.

Interestingly, this very topic is addressed in the Jan. 2009 New Era magazine (the one that just came out), where the following question is asked: "My nonmember friends have talked to me about things that go on in the temple. How do they know about them, and what should I say about them?" The answer states, in part (emphasis mine): "Temple symbols and ordinances have reached the public in various ways over the years, primarily by people who have left the Church. But just because these things are known to people outside the Church does not mean that they are any less sacred."

Here's the full link to the New Era article:

http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... 6f620a____

This points to a real problem the Church faces today. Its policy has been to obfuscate and dismiss unflattering information for years. This has worked reasonably well in insulating membership from "anti" attack. However, it also puts the members at a clear disadvantage. The paragraph you cited shows the Church still wishes to keep its young membership naïve to control their perception of the temple, a strategy which no longer holds any water. This is partly because much of the ridiculousness of the temple becomes apparent once you talk to another human being about it. If they had good temple preparation classes, more young people would say "you have got to be kidding me."

John Larsen wrote: If they had good temple preparation classes, more young people would say "you have got to be kidding me."

No they wouldn't. These are the children of the faithful, remember? They'd accept whatever was presented and never think another thing about it. They'd be better prepared, though. There would be fewer shocks.

harmony wrote:

John Larsen wrote: If they had good temple preparation classes, more young people would say "you have got to be kidding me."

No they wouldn't. These are the children of the faithful, remember? They'd accept whatever was presented and never think another thing about it. They'd be better prepared, though. There would be fewer shocks.

How? Once the initiate has left the temple for the first time there is still the empty feeling created by the giant let-down. There is no special useful information passed to the initiated other than stupid handshakes and funny underwear. I and many others discussing the temple in my youth expected far reaching special information that validated Mormonism. All we got were hokey practices, a movie and naked touching in initiatory.

Actually I can't say that I was horribly shocked. I went through my endowment fully knowing that there were no special aspects. Its a let-down. Even my wife commented on ow weird it all was.

harmony wrote:

John Larsen wrote: If they had good temple preparation classes, more young people would say "you have got to be kidding me."

No they wouldn't. These are the children of the faithful, remember? They'd accept whatever was presented and never think another thing about it. They'd be better prepared, though. There would be fewer shocks.

Most of us were children of the faithful. That is no kind of insurance.

Mercury wrote:Upon taking a good look at the gay marriage threads I thought of the race issue. Not just for the church but for the country. In the mid 1970's the tax exempt status of the church hung by a thread, thus the new policies (not to be confused with doctrine).

A little tongue in cheek.

Mercury wrote:In my minds eye I imagined thirty years from now the Mormons will once again strongly have the lights turned on by the media about gay rights. Tax exempt status might get pulled out again, as the current rumblings of a possible legal battle begin. Precedent will be set and a wedge will be ultimately forged and delivered, cracking the future of Mormonism in two again.

That's far overestimating the impact that gay marriage could possibly have on the church. I didn't oppose gay marriage because I don't see how it's possible that the tax exempt status or any of those other consequences could possibly find realization. Everyone knows the current investigation is just a formality to get people to stop calling.

Mercury wrote:Who knows. Intellectual Mormons and TBM's might form different organizations, thus making an increasingly laughed at religion even more isolated from the mainstream. in 2048 howw will things be different in the church? Women bishops? no. single bishops? sure, why not.

Not likely. I also find the presupposition that "TBM's" and intellectual Mormons are somehow mutually exclusive groups quite tenuous.

Mercury wrote:The more the resources are stretched thin the more the utah church will play in cracking down on dissent. Eventually though, the Utah church will have to face the fact that they cannot control their flocks brains as well as they were able to before.

But the church has been systematically moving away from short leashes and specific instructions about almost everything. 40 years ago you could read in the Ensign what sodas you were and were not allowed to drink, why the Book of Abraham didn't totally mesh with the Joseph Smith Papyri, and exactly what activities were appropriate for the Sabbath. Today they talk about why you should keep your room clean. They're moving away from commanding in all things and leaving it up to the membership to find out for themselves. That's why most counsel these days is made up more of "That's between you and the Lord," than "This is the doctrine." Your assessment only addresses the church as it plays out inside your head, not in the real world.

Mercury wrote:How many kids from the Internet generation have googled "Mormon temple ceremony"?

Plenty, and their own ignorance is what's going to preclude them from understanding why there's nothing inappropriate, sinister, or disturbing about it. If only people would educate themselves about oaths and covenants from the Old Testament.

Mercury wrote:What are nonmormon parents doing to educate their children about not just Mormonism but most organizations that engage in controlling behavior?

So you advocate this kind of control in non-Mormon parents, but in Mormon parents you demand a hands-off approach?

Mercury wrote:If only my dad had access to the information I had at my disposal.

But your cynicism and ignorance turn that information into a liability rather than an asset. That actually makes your case worse.

Mercury wrote:If only my mother had the same. I turn 30 this upcoming year. Its getting to where its time for a reprogramming of a few subsystems embedded in my self.

Can't wait.

Mercury wrote:Its time for Mormonism to do the same.

Mormonism isn't a 29 year old who likes to make fun of people and their belief systems to boost his self-esteem.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:Here's the full link to the New Era article:

http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... 6f620a____

That's interesting to see it in print.

There's an interesting Sunstone presentation that discusses a research project regarding Temple Preparation and its effect on the Temple experience (among other things). It's free, and you can download it here:

'Tell Eve about the Serpent!' A Study of the Effects of Temple Participation