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Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:05 am
by _Jersey Girl
On an existing thread, the issue of automatic writing came up. I made mention of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and hypergraphia (compulsive writing) and Ray posed this:

Ray A. wrote:I'm not sure how temporal lobe epilepsy explains someone like Pearl Curran.

Can you enlighten me?




And this:

Ray A wrote:Here's another link, Jersey Girl:

THE MYSTERY OF PATIENCE WORTH.

On once occasion, Pearl was shown a small yellow bird sitting on a hedge. Patience wished to include it in a poem, but Pearl had no idea what type of bird it was. Finally, Patience became frustrated and said, "He who knoweth the hedgerows knoweth the yellow-hammer." Pearl and her husband later consulted an old encyclopedia and saw that the yellow-hammer in her vision was not a type seen in America, but only in England.


Sorry about all this pseudo-science. I must be upsetting a few, but some answers or even credible theories would be welcomed.

Edit:

For the next 25 years, Patience Worth dictated a total of about 400,000 words. Her works were vast and consisted of not only her personal messages, but creative writings as well. She passed along nearly 5,000 poems, a play, many short works and several novels that were published to critical acclaim.


Pearl explained that as the words flowed into her head, she would feel a pressure and then scenes and images would appear to her. She would see the details of each scene. If two characters were talking along a road, she would see the roadway, the grass on either side of it and perhaps the landscape in the distance. If they spoke a foreign language, she would hear them speaking but above them, she would hear the voice of Patience as she interpreted the speech and indicated what part of the dialogue she wanted in the story. She would sometimes even see herself in the scenes, standing as an onlooker or moving between the characters. The experience was so sharp and so vivid that she became familiar with things that she could have never known about living in St. Louis. These items included lamps, jugs and cooking utensils used long ago in distant countries, types of clothing and jewelry word by people in other times and the sounds and smells of places that she had never even heard of before. (Emphasis added)


I haven't inserted all the exchanges, just those posted by Ray that had informational links. Ray if there were other items you wanted to repost, please do it. You also noted there were similarities between the Pearl Curran story and Joseph Smith. I promised I'd return to this by Friday evening.

Here I am.

I'm going to copy some of the material from the links you provided and address it as best I can.

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:33 am
by _Jersey Girl
From the second link http://www.prairieghosts.com/pearl.html,that Ray supplied, we read this:

THE MYSTERY OF PATIENCE WORTH
A St. Louis Housewife & One of the Greatest Unsolved Mysteries of All Time!


Over the years, St. Louis has been plagued with what some supernatural enthusiasts might consider to be one of the greatest unsolved mysteries of all time.

In 1913, Pearl Curran was a St. Louis housewife with no interest in the occult, other than a little dabbling with a Ouija board (not uncommon at the time). She played piano, never read much and had little education. She briefly thought of becoming an actress but gave that up when she married John Curran.

Her marriage was an uneventful as her childhood had been. The Curran’s were not rich, but they did make a comfortable living. Pearl had a maid to take care of the household chores and she and her husband enjoyed going to restaurants and to the theater. They were a social couple and enjoyed meeting friends and playing cards with neighbors in the evening. They seldom read anything, outside of the daily newspaper and some of the periodicals of the day and never really had an opportunity to associate with well-educated writers or poets. They were happy though and content in their middle-class home with their close friends and acquaintances.


This makes no mention of an alleged nervous breakdown contained in the first link you provided.

In the afternoons, while their husbands were at work, Pearl would often have tea with her mother and with a friend who lived nearby, a neighbor named Mrs. Hutchings. She believed that Ouija boards were a boring and silly pastime having seen the pointer spell out nothing but gibberish. Then, to the ladies surprise, the message on the board seemed to make sense. "Many moons ago I lived. Again I come. Patience Worth is my name," it spelled out.


How do we know she believed that Ouija boards were a boring and silly past time? I wouldn't know.

According to the spirit who called herself Patience Worth, she had lived in Dorsetshire, England in either 1649 or 1694 (the pointer included both dates) but even that information was difficult to obtain. Patience spoke in an archaic fashion, using words like "thee" and "thou" and sometimes refusing to answer their questions directly. When Mrs. Hutchings pushed for more information, the spirit first replied by saying "About me ye would know much. Yesterday is dead. Let thy mind rest as to the past." Eventually though, the ladies would learn that Patience claimed to come to America, where she was murdered by Indians.


I've read none of these writings. What age was Patience when she was murdered?

The initial contact with Patience Worth came through the Ouija board when Pearl and Mrs. Hutchings controlled it. But it was soon evident that Pearl was mainly responsible for the contact, for no matter who sat with her, the messages from Patience would come.


Hold the psychic phone. The messages only came when Pearl was hands on with the Ouija Board. It didn't matter who was on the other side, she was the constant.

Pearl was fascinated with the messages that they were receiving and began devoting more and more time to the Ouija board. Eventually though, the messages began coming so fast that no one could write them down and Pearl suddenly realized that she didn’t need the board anymore. The sentences were forming in her mind at the same time they were being spelled out on the board. She began to "dictate" the replies and messages from Patience to anyone who would write them. She would first employ a secretary, but later Pearl would record the words herself, using first a pencil and then a typewriter.


So, the person whose hands were always on the Ouija Board when the messages were received, suddenly realized she didn't need the board anymore. We find this unusual, why?

For the next 25 years, Patience Worth dictated a total of about 400,000 words. Her works were vast and consisted of not only her personal messages, but creative writings as well. She passed along nearly 5,000 poems, a play, many short works and several novels that were published to critical acclaim.

People came from all over and the Curran’s, always gracious and unpretentious, welcomed visitors who wanted to witness the automatic writings sessions where Pearl received information from Patience Worth. Authorities in the field of psychic investigation came, as well as people from all over the country who had begun to read and admire the writings attributed to Patience. The Curran’s never charged any admission to the house and all of the writing sessions were conducted with openness and candor. There were no trappings of Spiritualism here with darkened rooms and candles. Pearl would usually just sit in a brightly lit room with her notebook or typewriter and when the messages began to come to her, she would begin to write. The stories were filled with ancient languages, words and objects that had not been in use for hundreds of years and more. Things that there is no way that Pearl could have known about.


What ancient languages? According to this link, Patience arrived in the US 300 years prior. The question I have is not how Pearl could have produced ancient languages but, how could Patience have produced them? How do we know they were ancient languages? How was this claim of ancient languages verified and by whom?

Pearl explained that as the words flowed into her head, she would feel a pressure and then scenes and images would appear to her. She would see the details of each scene. If two characters were talking along a road, she would see the roadway, the grass on either side of it and perhaps the landscape in the distance. If they spoke a foreign language, she would hear them speaking but above them, she would hear the voice of Patience as she interpreted the speech and indicated what part of the dialogue she wanted in the story. She would sometimes even see herself in the scenes, standing as an onlooker or moving between the characters. The experience was so sharp and so vivid that she became familiar with things that she could have never known about living in St. Louis. These items included lamps, jugs and cooking utensils used long ago in distant countries, types of clothing and jewelry word by people in other times and the sounds and smells of places that she had never even heard of before.


Anyone can imagine sounds and smells of fictional or real places. I want to know what culture these lamps, jug, cooking utensils, clothing and jewelry came from and who verified that they came from specific "other cultures".

I take exception with your idea that her story has smiliarity to that of Joseph Smith, Ray. Much of the cultural things that Joseph Smith translated about, were known. They weren't known in the time period translated about.

On once occasion, Pearl was shown a small yellow bird sitting on a hedge. Patience wished to include it in a poem, but Pearl had no idea what type of bird it was. Finally, Patience became frustrated and said, "He who knoweth the hedgerows knoweth the yellow-hammer." Pearl and her husband later consulted an old encyclopedia and saw that the yellow-hammer in her vision was not a type seen in America, but only in England.


I don't know a way to refute this other than to say there were apparently no other witnesses to the above event except Pearl and her husband. Who else witnessed this event?

In spite of the visions and odd experiences though, Pearl never went into a trance during the writing sessions, as a Spiritualist medium would have done. She understood the writing as it came and yet while calling out the words to the stenographer, she would smoke cigarettes, drink coffee and eat. She seemed always to be aware of her surroundings, no matter what else might be going on with her.


I find this unremarkable.

As time passed, Patience became tolerant but condescending of her host’s abilities. Patience often scorned Pearl, but never failed to show her kindness. She simply seemed to think that her human counterpart was slightly stupid and that only by perseverance was she able to make herself known, especially when Pearl failed to grasp the spellings and meanings of certain words. But they plodded on together, continuing to amass a great body of work until about 1922.


Was Patience Worth a manifestation of Pearl's low self esteem? An alternate personality?

In this year, the connection between the two of them began to deteriorate, possibly due to changes in Pearl’s life and the fact that she had become pregnant for the first time at age 39. After her husband and her mother both died, the contact between Patience and Pearl became less and less often and eventually it died away.

By this time too, public interest in the mystery had faded, especially as no solution had ever been posed as to how the St. Louis housewife was accomplishing such remarkable feats.


Which died away first? Public interest or the connection between the two of them?

After the publication of several books and hundreds of poems, interest in Patience Worth vanished and cynicism replaced it. Debunkers accused Pearl of hiding her literary talent in order to exploit it in such a bizarre way and become famous. However, exhaustive studies have shown this to be highly unlikely, if not impossible. Scholars have analyzed Patience’s works and have found them to accurate in historical detail and written in such a way that only someone with an intimate knowledge of the time could have created them.

Pearl Curran died in California on December 4, 1937. The St. Louis Globe-Democrat headlined her obituary with the words: "Patience Worth is Dead." And whatever the secret of the mysterious "ghost writer", it went to the grave with her.

So, what really happened in this case and why does it remain today as one of our great unsolved mysteries? Was there actually an entity speaking to Pearl from beyond the grave? Or could the writings have simply come from her unconscious mind?

No verification was ever made that Patience Worth actually lived in the 1600s and yet experts who studied Pearl Curran doubted that she could have produced the works attributed to the ghost on her own. She was a woman of limited education with no knowledge of the language used or the history and subject matter that was written of by the alleged Patience Worth. Pearl simply could not have created the works of literary quality that have become known as the works of her spiritual counterpart.

So, what was it? What did happen here? Was it a true case of afterlife communication or the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on both the literary and paranormal communities? It’s unlikely that we will ever know for sure, but in the absence of any other explanation, this one will have to be filed under "unexplained".

© Copyright 2002- 2008 by Troy Taylor. All Rights Reserved.






I don't know what happened. I want to know about the cultural material that she wrote about and how it was verified as being historically accurate.

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:47 am
by _Ray A
I can see this is going to be a long thread. First of all, Jersey Girl, I refer you to the Wiki entry on Pearl Curran/Patience Worth. That may answer some of your questions, but I'll get to them after this post anyway.

As for investigations into Pearl Curran:

A thorough investigation of the case was conducted by Dr. Walter Franklin Prince who published in 1927 his book The Case of Patience Worth. A voluminous report of 509 pages covering the Patience Worth case from its inception in 1913 to about 1927 when his book was published by the Boston Society for Psychic Research. It provided an autobiographical sketch of Pearl Curran, eye-witness reports, opinions and reviews, poetry of Patience and Mrs. Curran and much other information related to the case. As part of his investigation Prince wrote an article titled "The Riddle of Patience Worth," which appeared in the July 1926 issue of Scientific American. In it he requested anyone with information, (presumedly discrediting Pearl Curran) bearing on the case, to contact him; no one ever did.

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:56 am
by _Jersey Girl
Ray,

I don't intend for this to be a long thread. My one and only intention was to keep my promise to you. I'll continue with it as long as you wish and as long as you can tolerate my rambling posts.

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:11 am
by _Ray A
Jersey Girl wrote:This makes no mention of an alleged nervous breakdown contained in the first link you provided.


What does a nervous breakdown have to do with this? See the Wiki link I gave, which explains why she had the nervous breakdown.

Jersey Girl wrote:How do we know she believed that Ouija boards were a boring and silly past time? I wouldn't know.


I wouldn't have an answer to that any more than I have an answer as to how Jesus walked on water. I'm not even sure Jesus ever lived.


Jersey Girl wrote:I've read none of these writings. What age was Patience when she was murdered?


See the Wiki link. No evidence of a Patience Worth has ever been found. No evidence of a Moroni has ever been found either. But that's irrelevant to how automatic writing works.

No authenticated documentation has ever been found to indicate that someone named Patience Worth had lived in Dorsetshire England during the later 17th century nor are there any ship logs from that period with the name Patience Worth. The name Patience Worth does occur in census data of early settlers of the United States but none of them has been linked to the Patience Worth of Pearl Curran.



Jersey Girl wrote:Hold the psychic phone. The messages only came when Pearl was hands on with the Ouija Board. It didn't matter who was on the other side, she was the constant.


This doesn't make sense.


Jersey Girl wrote:So, the person whose hands were always on the Ouija Board when the messages were received, suddenly realized she didn't need the board anymore. We find this unusual, why?


This makes a little more sense. But who is "we"? Joseph Smith eventually discarded the seerstone, but admittedly that doesn't explain much in regard to the production of the Book of Mormon. Once he had perfected the "art" of "receiving revelation", he said he no longer needed "aids", because he became so used to it.


Jersey Girl wrote:What ancient languages? According to this link, Patience arrived in the US 300 years prior. The question I have is not how Pearl could have produced ancient languages but, how could Patience have produced them? How do we know they were ancient languages? How was this claim of ancient languages verified and by whom?


Anyway, the produced literature was considered to be first rate, for example by the distinguished and influential literary critic William Marion Reedy who considered The Sorry Tale to be a new classic of world literature. Patience Worth was also listed as one of the outstanding authors of 1918 by The Joint Committee of Literary Arts of New York. She was also cited by William Stanley Braithwaite in the 1918 edition of the Anthology of Magazine Verse and Year Book of American Poetry by printing the complete text of five of her poems, along with other leading poets of the day including William Rose Benet, Amy Lowell, and Edgar Lee Masters. Braithwaite's index of magazine verse for 1918 listed the titles of eighty-eight poems by Patience Worth that appeared in magazines during the twelve-month period only two of which were considered by Braithwaite to be lacking in any distinction. The same index listed ten poems by Amy Lowell and five by Edna St. Vincent Millay.
Many people said that because of her poor education, Curran herself could not be composing the works. The writer of a book entitled The Mystery of Patience Worth claimed that derivation of the language used in the Patience Worth historical novels was 90 percent Anglo-Saxon and 10 percent old French. No words were in use later than the 17th century. The author who wrote this was Casper Yost, the same man who introduced Patience Worth and Pearl Curran to the public.


I'm really not sure who verified this 10 percent old French.


Jersey Girl wrote:Anyone can imagine sounds and smells of fictional or real places. I want to know what culture these lamps, jug, cooking utensils, clothing and jewelry came from and who verified that they came from specific "other cultures".


She verified it herself by going to an encyclopaedia, as per the link. I suppose, if someone in Australia, for example, was told the word "manicou" they would not have a clue what it meant, but resorting to an encyclopaedia could solve the mystery. If I told an Aussie "I saw a manicou", I'd get stares more odd than a Labrador in ear-twirling perplexity. No Aussie ever says "manicou". It's a term distinctive to the Caribbean. Manicou.

In Dominica and Trinidad opossum or "manicou" is popular and can only be hunted during certain times of the year due to over-hunting;


I invite you to spend a couple of years in the sunburnt land Down Under and ask any Aussie if he/she knows what a "manicou" is. If you can find one, go out and buy a lottery ticket. According to Pearl Curran, she had no idea about some of the things she was told about, but had to verify it from an encyclopaedia. Unfortunately, the www was not available.

Jersey Girl wrote:I take exception with your idea that her story has similarity to that of Joseph Smith, Ray. Much of the cultural things that Joseph Smith translated about, were known. They weren't known in the time period translated about.


Huh? Examples?

Jersey Girl wrote:I don't know a way to refute this other than to say there were apparently no other witnesses to the above event except Pearl and her husband. Who else witnessed this event?


There were no witnesses to the first vision, no witnesses to Moroni's appearance (because it was really a dream), no witnesses that Joseph really talked with John the Revelator, no witnesses that an angel commanded Joseph to practice polygamy, no witnesses to Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead, no witnesses that a serpent spoke to Adam and Eve.

Does this discredit Pearl Curran? It could, but on face value I can only rely on accounts. I wasn't there. But I see lots of similarities. The fact that no one has been able to discredit Curran, apart from being totally skeptical, I think that somewhat significant. I'm still open on how the Book of Mormon was produced. If someone can find Dale's hoped for conclusive evidence, and it showed that Rigdon was really the author of the Book of Mormon, I'd have no hesitation in calling Joseph Smith a fraud and a lying bastard. I'd probably end up being his worst critic. Since no conclusive evidence has come yet, I think the automatic writing theory fits best. If that theory is correct, it would absolve him from intentional and deliberate fraud (not that I'm afraid of the outcome being intentional fraud, but in regard to the Book of Mormon production, so far I don't see it conclusively). That's not to say I think it has anything to do with reality!! No more than thinking that someone named "Patience Worth" ever lived. That's why I don't think you fully understand the theory of automatic writing. It can produce accurate details in some regards, yet be based on a totally fictitious story.


Jersey Girl wrote:Was Patience Worth a manifestation of Pearl's low self esteem? An alternate personality?


Probably as much as Joseph Smith.

Jersey Girl wrote:Which died away first? Public interest or the connection between the two of them?


I'm not sure. Maybe one factor is that Curran never started a Church and told the world it was the only true church, and that anyone who didn't join would not have 1,000 wives in a Celestial Kingdom? Maybe she just didn't have the inventive religion-making genius of Joseph Smith?? And maybe she wasn't motivated by sexual desires? I dunno. Maybe she wasn't charismatic enough? And didn't know how to propose to a man by telling him, "happiness is the purpose and design of our existence....."??

Jersey Girl wrote:I don't know what happened. I want to know about the cultural material that she wrote about and how it was verified as being historically accurate.


Better find out first if Jesus ever lived.

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:07 am
by _cinepro
You can read some of the writings of Patience Worth/ Pearl Curran at Google Books.

Here is her 600+ page book about the life of Christ:

The Sorry Tale

The introduction of the book has a good overview regarding the circumstances under which it was produced.

As far as I know, no one has ever been able to pass the "The Sorry Tale" test and produce a comparable work by similar means....

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:12 am
by _Jersey Girl
cinepro wrote:You can read some of the writings of Patience Worth/ Pearl Curran at Google Books.

Here is her 600+ page book about the life of Christ:

The Sorry Tale

The introduction of the book has a good overview regarding the circumstances under which it was produced.

As far as I know, no one has ever been able to pass the "The Sorry Tale" test and produce a comparable work by similar means....


I started reading the above and decided it was creepy as all heck. Let me summon more courage...

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:15 am
by _Jersey Girl
And Mr. A,

I read your post. I'm going to give you exactly what you have earned.

Mwah ha ha ha
:twisted:

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:18 am
by _Ray A
Jersey Girl wrote:And Mr. A,

I read your post. I'm going to give you exactly what you have earned.

Mwah ha ha ha
:twisted:


This is getting weirder and weirder.

Re: Pearl Curran exchanges with Ray (automatic writing)

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:29 am
by _Jersey Girl
Ray A wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:And Mr. A,

I read your post. I'm going to give you exactly what you have earned.

Mwah ha ha ha
:twisted:


This is getting weirder and weirder.


I'm afraid it's going to get stupendously weird before it's all over. I know just the place to look for counter stuff and if I have to wade through pages of creepy stuff to find it, you're payin' for it, Oz Man!