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Over the past few days, Jason has asked me why I've been refering to the deity we've been discussing as the Mormon God and the Mormon Jesus. I've been discussing their charactor with a deeper bitterness lately as well.

Jason (and others),

Here's why (and please excuse the long post):

First of all, my bitterness has nothing to do with whether or not I ever expected a God to make everything right for mankind. I recognize the value of experiencing both the pleasure and pain of life. How else would many of us develop empathy for others - a concept I would hope is a divine attribute.

My bitterness (and even anger) stems mostly from what I believe to be a betrayal of a sacred trust.

Honestly, I lean toward the belief that Joseph Smith (and some that followed him) created the God that Mormonism worships - even today. There is no perfection, equity, consistancy, unconditional love or even justice in this fictional character. But I will take this belief one step further: If Smith was inspired from beyond the veil, he must have connected with someone far from what we would all hope God is really like. In my opinion, the Mormon God is no better than a deceased mortal with deep seated character flaws (I'll list them later if anyone is interested).

I truly hope there is something (or even someone) beyond the veil that can and would bring some sort of balance and peace to mankind. This is mostly a wishful hope to me now.

Now, it is important for me to relate my experience with this hope when I was Mormon.

I used to channel this balance and peace from beyond the veil. I conveyed messages of love, comfort, instruction and on occasion literally healed others while connected. At the time I called it the Melchizedek priesthood. I also had night dreams that would reveal unforseen dangers and admonish me as well. Dreams, for instance, that specifically saved one of my son's life. The dreams were dark though, they would convey their messages with only troubling negative reinforcement and intolerance - unlike how I wanted to teach my children or develop any loving and patient relationship. Still, these seemingly accurate dreams had their effects upon myself and those around me.

Later in my life I began to realize that the messages I received through revelation were not always accurate. I began to admit to myself that sometimes they were absolutely wrong.

As a TBM chapel Mormon, I spent a great deal of my efforts in emphasizing the importance of emulating the peace that is Christ's charity and to witness for ourselves what the Book of Mormon prophets described as singing the song of redeeming love (Alma 5:9-62) a manifestation I believe I had experienced throughout my life. This was the foundation of my hopes and beliefs.

A few years ago when I began to search the Mormon books to vindicate my heros, the door of inspiration literally slammed shut and even my dreams began to become increasingly darker and without instruction. Even after commiting to several consecutive days of painful fasting during the hot Arizona summer, the peace, assurance and confirmations never came. If somehow they would have come, I would have shelved my doubts and held on to any gift received. But whoever or whatever it was that passed information to me from beyond the veil (up to my 42nd year) had cut and run.

I would still give anything for a relationship with a real loving Savior or even a real Heavenly Father - even if they weren't entirely perfect. But since I am now very uncomfortable with the relationship that I thought I had, I would prefer to place a higher value upon relationships with those potentially good people that yet live.

Now, I am not as familiar with the Gods of other religeons. But the God and Jesus of the Mormons - they are not Gods but little men of dubious character. I still don't really know who it was that I connected with beyond the veil all those years. All I know that, at times, it must have been the same imposter known to Joseph Smith.
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Hi Inc,

Thanks for this post and for sharing your experience.

Painful.

I used to put my "spiritual" experiences into the Mormon box, then realized that people the world over had similar experiences. Healing, visions, inspiration, revelations, dreams, insights, moments of transcendence, past lives, psychic connections, other worldly senses, etc. etc., seem to be more about the human condition than a divine external force.

I believe people, (regardless of their race, gender, or religion), have these types of experiences and fit them into whatever "box" fits their beliefs.

If a Mormon prays and a child is healed... well it was the priesthood. If a Catholic prays and a child is healed it proves their belief system is the true authority of God. If a Hindu, Muslim, Scientologist, JW, Pagan, Zoroastrian, or any other religionists has a similar experience it supports, strengthens, and confirms their religious teachings and cultural "truths".

When I realized this in a concrete way, my whole world changed.

I too have had some seriously amazing, powerful, life altering "spiritual" experiences, as a believer and even more so after my belief in Mormonism has ended.

I still do not have explanations for everything, but am clear that these types of experiences have absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism. Nothing.

My belief now is that there is more to our world than humans can imagine, let alone know. Anyone who claims to have ultimate divine truth, who claims to channel God, who claims exclusive rights to God's authority (whatever this is..), is living in a very small box.

Thanks again...

~td~

I agree with your thoughts, TD,

Except that I found it strange that spiritual manifestations ceased not too long after I began to study the history of the church. I fully expected my research to be tempered with inspiration but it never happened.

Whoever or whatever the invisible manifestor was to this point, never corrected my innane assumptions that:

miracles = the truthfulness of the Mormon church.

Inconceivable wrote:
Now, I am not as familiar with the Gods of other religeons. But the God and Jesus of the Mormons - they are not Gods but little men of dubious character. I still don't really know who it was that I connected with beyond the veil all those years. All I know that, at times, it must have been the same imposter known to Joseph Smith.
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God, Gawdd!!!
Took a while for ya....
By nature I am extremely impatient, the reason I'm telling you this is, because, I put Mormon God, Traditional God, to similar tests, he never responded.
Fine, it doesn't mean he doesn't exist, I haven't seen or experienced him/her yet.
Similarly, I have another quest (equally serious), I want to find first "Alien Artifact". I do scour deserts, places where few man ever visited, I do like to camp middle of nowhere hoping I'll be abducted or at least I will see a spaceship of an Alien Race.
I am hopeful but I am not investing anything beyond my limit.

Inc,

What attributes of what you call the Mormon God do you specifically object too. And are those same attributes found in the God of Judeo/Christian regions as well or are they different.

You could ask Betty Eide(think that is the name) who wrote about a near death experience. Trouble is, you will have to choose the version she tells to LDS Audiences or the version she tells to Christian audiences. They are quite different.

Maybe here experiences or those of others of similar circumstances can help a bit. Not answer but at least help.

Jason Bourne wrote:Inc,

What attributes of what you call the Mormon God do you specifically object too?

The Mormon God decieved me into knowing (yeah, knowing) that His church and it's belief system was true. I don't even really understand why he would do this. He's dead. The spiritual manifestations I received were not from mortals. I just don't think he is who he says he is. I believe he's a liar.

I laid my hands on many people to convey messages that came from the same source every time. Not sure if you ever had this experience, but I literally didn't stress over what I would say, command or convey. It didn't matter what I wished or hoped for, it was totally up to the one dictating the blessing to me. Mormons call it being in tune. I knew when I was in tune because the words would flow. I would say things that were beyond my ability to formulate, I would reveal things that I or the blessee were not particularly aware of beforehand. I would even promise things that were beyond my capacity to fulfill.

Though most were fulfilled or confirmed, I did get left hanging on a couple occasions that were incredibly faith debilitating to all those present. It made me look like the one that was the poser. I didn't like that trial of my faith. It was unkind.

And no, I don't think he is all powerful either. He can't always heal even when he commands it. Maybe Joseph Smith really was his prophet, but if the Mormon God isn't really a God, then Smith wasn't a prophet of God was he?

JoetheClerk wrote:You could ask Betty Eide(think that is the name) who wrote about a near death experience. Trouble is, you will have to choose the version she tells to LDS Audiences or the version she tells to Christian audiences. They are quite different.

Maybe here experiences or those of others of similar circumstances can help a bit. Not answer but at least help.

I read her book about 15 years ago. I wasn't aware she had two versions of her first vision. I wonder where she got that idea from?

The more credible research on NDE's have had a great deal of influence on the conclusions I've been leaning toward.

Hi Inc,

I find your posts really fascinating.

So, if I am understanding you correctly, you believe there is some entity (the Mormon God?) who has given you power and has tricked you into believing Mormonism? This entity is (may be), the same one that tricked Joseph Smith and other Mormons but it is not the actual God of the universe?

Is that about right?

As I read your past few posts I'm reminded of those people who channel deceased spirits or entities. Have you read works by Jane Roberts/Seth? Or the "Abraham Material", through Ester and Jerry Hicks? How about the work of Edgar Cayce or any of the Conversations with God books?

I actually know a man here in town who is a very well respected Lawyer and is a channeler for a group of entities. He talks openly about the information he receives, and found another channeler in California who is receiving information from the same source.

My own experience of existence does not match these types of experiences and I would reframe them but it is interesting to me that you feel you have actually had an entity work through you.

Anything else you would feel comfortable sharing?

In regards to Joseph Smith, if we look at the D&C, basically he is channeling Jesus Christ, In other words, Christ is supposedly speaking through the mouth of Joseph Smith. I personally don't buy it (sounds way too much like Joseph Smith...LOL), still, from your perspective, maybe the entity that used Joseph Smith is the same one that used you?

Do you think this is possible? Might this be how you perceive the "Mormon God"?

Interesting discussion Inc,

~td~

What attributes of what you call the Mormon God do you specifically object too?

The Mormon God decieved me into knowing (yeah, knowing) that His church and it's belief system was true. I don't even really understand why he would do this. He's dead. The spiritual manifestations I received were not from mortals. I just don't think he is who he says he is. I believe he's a liar.[/quote]

Wait

You think some real being that you coin "the Mormon god" tricked you into a testimony? And that that being is now dead?

I laid my hands on many people to convey messages that came from the same source every time. Not sure if you ever had this experience, but I literally didn't stress over what I would say, command or convey.

I have had what I believe are spiritual manifestations from God, yes. But perhaps not as direct as what you are describing. I find it odd that if they were as direct as you say that you now reject God. To what do you attribute these messages too now?

It didn't matter what I wished or hoped for, it was totally up to the one dictating the blessing to me. Mormons call it being in tune. I knew when I was in tune because the words would flow. I would say things that were beyond my ability to formulate, I would reveal things that I or the blessee were not particularly aware of beforehand. I would even promise things that were beyond my capacity to fulfill.

Sounds like some wonderful spiritual experiences.

Though most were fulfilled or confirmed, I did get left hanging on a couple occasions that were incredibly faith debilitating to all those present. It made me look like the one that was the poser. I didn't like that trial of my faith. It was unkind.

You are losing me here.

And no, I don't think he is all powerful either. He can't always heal even when he commands it. Maybe Joseph Smith really was his prophet, but if the Mormon God isn't really a God, then Smith wasn't a prophet of God was he?

That is getting a little weird now.