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LGT apologists: FAIL

I recently decided to participate again on MAD in a LPT, or “limited posting tactic”, in which I will participate only on threads devoted to Book of Mormon/Mesoamerican topics. I really have not followed MAD carefully over the past couple of years, other than the occasional thread, so I perhaps have been unaware of some very basic changes that may have occurred there.

In particular, I’ve been participating on this thread about Mesoamerican use of iron:
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=41077

Other than Zak’s unabashed, unashamed, google driven seemingly random posting, (unbelievably, he provided a link to an article about artifacts from Japan and China to prove there was metallurgy in Mesoamerica), what has struck me about this thread is the lack of defenders of LGT. The vocal believers on the thread adhere to the hemispheric model, or to a possible Peruvian model.

After all their work, after all their debates, after all their articles…. LGT apologists have seemingly failed to persuade fellow believers of the strength of their case. As one believer on the thread put it, if he has to choose between the prophets and academics, he’ll go with the prophet.

Now, admittedly this is just one thread, and perhaps I just caught the LGTers asleep at the wheel. I know some of you follow MAD more carefully, so I’m asking you: does it now appear that most believers on MAD reject LGT in Mesoamerica?

In other words, have the Meldrumites attained the upper hand?

The vocal believers on the thread adhere to the hemispheric model, or to a possible Peruvian model.

Can you name names? How can a thread of six pages length on an obscure board equate to failure? Do LGT hypothesizers have some obligation to convince everyone else when even the Church itself allows for the possiblity of an LGT?

bcspace wrote:

The vocal believers on the thread adhere to the hemispheric model, or to a possible Peruvian model.

Can you name names?

Just read the thread, surely? Since she gave you a link, the knee-jerk CFR act seems singularly pointless.

When you have done that, you might try answering the question at the end of the OP:

I’m asking you: does it now appear that most believers on MAD reject LGT in Mesoamerica?

In other words, have the Meldrumites attained the upper hand?

bcspace wrote: How can a thread of six pages length on an obscure board equate to failure?

Are you saying MADB is an obscure board? I thought we were th exclusive obscure board. Now you're saying there's a pretender to the obscure crown?

Can you name names? How can a thread of six pages length on an obscure board equate to failure? Do LGT hypothesizers have some obligation to convince everyone else when even the Church itself allows for the possiblity of an LGT?

That's why I asked this question:

Now, admittedly this is just one thread, and perhaps I just caught the LGTers asleep at the wheel. I know some of you follow MAD more carefully, so I’m asking you: does it now appear that most believers on MAD reject LGT in Mesoamerica?

In other words, have the Meldrumites attained the upper hand?

They think they don't have to be consistent because, for most of them, the bottom line is that the Book of Mormon happened somewhere. As long as the Church makes no official declaration they will argue whatever is easiest. Most apologists are simply opportunists. Even DCP will do this.

Why are there no defenders of the Limited Geography Theory? Because you aren't specifically attacking the LGT. You are attacking claims of metallurgy, so they are free to flee to other parts of the hemisphere (even other time periods, it seems).

Do I understand correctly that Zakuska thinks red paint is proof of wrought iron decorations because the pigment comes from iron-containing minerals?

They think they don't have to be consistent because, for most of them, the bottom line is that the Book of Mormon happened somewhere. As long as the Church makes no official declaration they will argue whatever is easiest. Most apologists are simply opportunists. Even DCP will do this.

Why are there no defenders of the Limited Geography Theory? Because you aren't specifically attacking the LGT. You are attacking claims of metallurgy, so they are free to flee to other parts of the hemisphere (even other time periods, it seems).

Do I understand correctly that Zakuska thinks red paint is proof of wrought iron decorations because the pigment comes from iron-containing minerals?

I've suspected apologists are opportunists, as well, but it was pretty much confirmed for me the day I saw (as I once predicted) apologists claiming that perhaps the translation method was a combination of "loose" and "tight".

Yes, Zak seems to believe red paint is proof of the use of iron ornaments as decoration. Of course, he also thinks artifacts from Japan and China are proof of the use of iron ornaments as decorations in Mesoamerica.

beastie wrote:Now, admittedly this is just one thread, and perhaps I just caught the LGTers asleep at the wheel. I know some of you follow MAD more carefully, so I’m asking you: does it now appear that most believers on MAD reject LGT in Mesoamerica?

That would be interesting to find out. But it seems to me they'll grasp at anything to try to anchor Book of Mormon historicity. Evidence in Peru counts, and your mention of Japan and China doesn't surprise me.

beastie wrote:In other words, have the Meldrumites attained the upper hand?

I don't think they have, yet. But his ideas are more appealing simply because they "fit" with what the prophets have said publicly and over conference pulpits for over a century. It's one way of avoiding "cog.diss". So if Meldrum is right, they feel a lot safer anchored in the harbour of continuity. If you read some of the testimonies on Meldrum's site, some of the most common expressions are along the lines of "now it all makes sense". That is, "prophetic utterances" and what Meldrum is saying. So it drastically reduces "cog.diss".

I think this is where the MI is indeed facing an uphill battle.

I don't have any doubt that the MI apologists are still hard at work to provide supporting evidence for LGT in Mesoamerica. And they may even, one day, be able to influence the GAs enough that the GAs will start making public statements that could be interpreted as supportive of LGT. I think it will take the GAs support before it begins to uproot the old ideas about the Book of Mormon.

But I am curious about the current make-up of MAD. It almost seems like the quasi-professional apologists have abandoned the place along with most critics.

beastie wrote: I think it will take the GAs support before it begins to uproot the old ideas about the Book of Mormon.

I know this doesn't have much to do with MAD either (and I'll look more into this on Wednesday when I have more time), but an added question I have is: How many GAs believe the LGT?