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Over on a thread at MAD, Bill Hamblin fancies hemself to be giving the "third degree" to Tarski. Tarski apparently questioned the authority of Kerry Shirts on matters of Egyptology, and so Hamblin is sort of (irrationally) throwing it back at Tarski, at the apex of his condescension Bill boasts,

Hamblin wrote:So, since you are an autodidact amateur in history, ancient studies, religion, etc. perhaps it would be wisest for you to stop criticizing Kerry Shirts and Hugh Nibley. I seem to recall Confucius saying something about glass houses and stones.

This is all fine and good for those who find happiness in witty put-downs of others. No doubt DCP got a smile out of it. Here is the great Oxford professor of history using his authority as a historian to tell Tarski a thing or two, and ties it all together with a little historical Confucius esoterica.

A masterful cheap shot, except...

Did Confucius say something about glass houses and stones?

If not, wow, how utterly embarrassing for Hamblin! It would be like Tarski lecturing Kerry on math, and then throwing in some bit of math esoterica to nail the coffin shut, but completely wrong like, "I seem to recall the sum of the squares of the legs equal to the perimeter of an octagon."

I spent a half hour or so tonight trying to find a scholarly attribution of this saying to Confucius without luck. Though, I found a few accusations of misattribution to Confucius. And I found a number of attributions to Chaucer,

The oldest known written use of this expression is in Geoffrey Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde (c1385)

http://www.bookbrowse.com/wordplay/arch ... number=162

Further, looking into the history of glass in China, I've become even more skeptical,

In Chinese history, glass played a peripheral role in the arts and crafts, when compared to ceramics and metal work [1]. The limited archaeological distribution and use of glass objects are evidence of the rarity of the material. Literary sources date the first manufacture of glass to the 5th century AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ch ... cite_ref-1

It seems it would be awfully anachronistic for Confucius to say such a thing, though that wouldn't stop an apologist.

Well, hey, I'm just doing my research on the internet and I'm certainly no historian. Bill and Dan are historians and have all day tommorow to peruse serious scholarly sources and prove Confucius is attributed with this saying and earn the rhetorical edge to Hamblins cheap shot.

But until then, things are looking pretty bad for Hamblin. Oh God, a historian getting owned trying to be witty and drop sayings by Confucius that Confucius didn't say...

Gadianton wrote:Further, looking into the history of glass in China, I've become even more skeptical,

In Chinese history, glass played a peripheral role in the arts and crafts, when compared to ceramics and metal work [1]. The limited archaeological distribution and use of glass objects are evidence of the rarity of the material. Literary sources date the first manufacture of glass to the 5th century AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ch ... cite_ref-1

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Archaeologists are discovering new things all the time. Besides, maybe Confucius meant something other than glass, like quartz, and in modern Chinese the word for that other thing has come to refer to glass.

CaliforniaKid wrote:[Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Archaeologists are discovering new things all the time. Besides, maybe Confucius meant something other than glass, like quartz, and in modern Chinese the word for that other thing has come to refer to glass.

LOL.. Maybe it was Glass Noodles ?

it is really a bit silly to start arguing about what somebody who lived 500 BC said, or did not say.

But if we are to seriously address the question as to whether Confucius said anything like "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones", we need to agree on what textual sources are to be examined. I think you will find that if you ask experts, they will tell you that it is pretty difficult to be certain whether or not Confucius ever said any particular thing attributed to him, but that if there are any authentic words by Confucius that have come down to us they are probably to be found in the book known in English as the "Analects". You can find online texts of this easily enough.

It's a pretty short book, and anyone who has skimmed through it will soon join me in the conviction that it would be a very good idea to bet a large amount of folding money that Confucius never said anything of the kind attributed to him in the post by Hamblin, on condition that we are to use the Analects to decide who wins.

Of course it may just be that the reference to Confucius is supposed to be funny in some way, rather than a serious attribution. They used to be a fashion for "Confucius, he say" jokes once. If so, I suppose somebody with their roots in Chinese culture rather than Christian culture could repay the compliment by saying something like "I seem to recall Jesus saying that a man with his head up his ass may also end up with his foot in his mouth".

Oh geez. So much for Hamblin being a "historian."

I have yet another take on this:

Gadianton wrote:Over on a thread at MAD, Bill Hamblin fancies hemself to be giving the "third degree" to Tarski. Tarski apparently questioned the authority of Kerry Shirts on matters of Egyptology, and so Hamblin is sort of (irrationally) throwing it back at Tarski, at the apex of his condescension Bill boasts,

Does this mean that Hamblin accepts Kerry Shirts as an authority on matters of Egyptology??

Apparently Hamblin's brief tour of Oxford did wonders for his ego.

"I seem to recall Jesus saying that a man with his head up his ass may also end up with his foot in his mouth"

LOL, Gad!! If Jesus didn't say that, then he certainly should've.

The brother of Jared taught the Chinese glass-working when they were working on th barges maybe?

Wow, what an embarrassment. If I had been exposed in this manner, I know that I would be turning several deepening shades of red. I hope that Hamblin apologizes, for the sake of his own reputation. I mean, this certainly raises a number of questions concerning the historical accuracy of his Mopologetic publications.

Mister Scratch wrote:Wow, what an embarrassment. If I had been exposed in this manner, I know that I would be turning several deepening shades of red. I hope that Hamblin apologizes, for the sake of his own reputation. I mean, this certainly raises a number of questions concerning the historical accuracy of his Mopologetic publications.

Yes, misquoting Confucius completely proves that he has no idea what he is doing in one of his primary fields of study. I embarrassed myself the other day by making an error when talking about physics with some friends the other day. I shall now give up my Tech Writing job in disgrace. All my work has been discredited.

The Nehor wrote:Yes, misquoting Confucius completely proves that he has no idea what he is doing in one of his primary fields of study.

It's obvious that it doesn't.

What is however possibly shown by this bit of silliness is that the person in question is not above pretending to be acquainted with the writings of people he has not read.

That does go to his general credibility over a far wider field than whatever they taught him to do in college.

(Personally I still suspect he was trying to make some kind of stupid joke, on the basis that Confucius is basically a joke figure. If so, Hamblin is, to that extent, a joke figure himself.)

What Danna said.

If we are to believe the Jaredites (~2500BC?) had technology to make "windows" that could be "dashed into pieces", then it is entirely possible for the Chinese to have similar knowledge of glass-making 2000 years later.

And I believe Confucius actually said "People who live in glass houses always have to answer the doorbell".