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Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:11 am
by _John Larsen
Article in the Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/03/13/west_treats_east/

It seems that as many Holocaust survivors enter their late elderly years and start to suffer from dementia, many believe they are back in the concentration camps. Dr. Michael Grodin's study also deals with Monks who have been tortured who find when they try to mediate, the religious practice that gives them solace and peace, the mind's defenses are lowered against the intrusions of flashbacks and PTSD:

He has seen a similar process in aging Holocaust survivors, he said: As they begin to suffer from dementia, their brains become less able to inhibit bad memories, and they sometimes believe they are back in concentration camps.


As a final reward after suffering some of the worst conditions and torture known to mankind, these poor souls find themselves back in the camps, at least in their mind. I am sure that this is a key part of free agency and God's plan for happiness. If I were God, I would have left the dementia--reliving horror part out.

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:45 am
by _Ray A
I would be inclined to agree with John, except that the picture that emerges from Holocaust survivors indicates that many still believe in God.

I don't have access to This Study, but maybe someone who does can enlighten us.

The story of Jack and Ina Polack is somewhat typical of what I've read.

Interview with Holocaust Survivors.

You both grew up in orthodox families. How has the Holocaust changed your perception of faith and religion?


Mrs. Polak: It changed a lot in me.
Mr. Polak: Belief in God has been very important for people. I have seen people dying peacefully because they believed in God, and I have seen people dying horribly because they cursed God. In our letters, you can find a lot of references to God; He continuously stood by us. I believe that God gave me life for a certain purpose: to give testimony to other people of the horrors of the Holocaust. On the other hand, praying is not that easy, because when you go to a service, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, how many times do you have to say how great God is? I say how great God is that allowed the Holocaust to happen. Although one can criticize the horrible things that have been happening in the world, for me religion is still very important.


That view seems a bit skewed on some points.

To the contrary there's Jeannine Burk.

I did not observe anything for the longest time. I did not believe in God. I think a lot of survivors feel guilty about surviving: "Why am I alive and why is my father dead? Maybe God chose me because I am able to make a little contribution by telling this now."

People ask me, can I forgive? I can't. I cannot forgive. I blame the German people a great deal because I feel they were passive. They turned away. They may have the audacity to say they did not know. That is unacceptable. Until they can own up to it, I can't forgive.


The reactions seem to have been mixed:

The Dentist of Auschwitz.

A debate erupted. Someone said, "Why are we always the scapegoats?"

"As we have done many times before, we will also survive this, Amulek (devil)," said Reb Moishe, who sat next to him. "Eventually all people have to live by God's Law."

"Did God really think men would live by his laws?" asked another.

"Yes," the rebbe said. He then recited: "I'll make thee a great nation, and I'll bless thee and curse him who cursed thee."

Then another prisoner interrupted. "Why were we driven out of our homeland and dispersed throughout the world? Why are we made into contemptible slaves? Why are we the focal point of hate at all times?"

Reb Moishe answered with calm dignity. "Losing faith and losing the belief in God run counter to our principles, counter to our Halakah." He had such a strong belief in what he said that it was hard for him to listen to the others. He ended the discussion, saying, "Our belief in God and hope is our only salvation." My belief was not as clear as his.

"Wars don't last forever," Papa remarked. "Once this is over we'll all celebrate victory over this amulek." No one mentioned resisting. We all seemed to be resigned to whatever fate had in store for us.


A Holocaust Survivor impressed by the Jehovah's Witnesses and how they endured persecution, imprisonment and death:

My name is Joseph Kempler. KNOCKING tells a story that I saw with my own eyes. I am a Holocaust survivor, raised as a Jew in Poland. I lost my faith because of the things I saw and experienced in the Nazi camps. But ironically what I also saw eventually restored my faith in God. I won't say more about my story here, or the struggles I and my family face because of the past. I'd like to say something about the present....

Most people cannot imagine what it is like, but survivors understand one another. Even though I mentioned in the film that some Jews view me as a traitor for becoming a Christian, I have found that often Jewish survivors pay even closer attention to what I have to say. It's not that they necessarily believe it or are interested in changing religion, but they are intrigued by the fact that I now have faith because so many of us survivors lost it and some wish they could find it again. Many Jewish survivors like to talk to Witnesses because they know and respect them for what they went through in the camps, even if the survivors as Jews resent Christian "evangelizing."

I was there and happened to sit next to two Jehovah's Witness prisoners. They talked to me a lot about their religion, but it didn't sink in. We got to be good friends. One of the men was terribly crippled. The SS had put bolts between his fingers, tied his hands behind his back, and hung him by his fingers on a pole. His right arm was totally paralyzed and he had only partial use of his left arm. (Another survivor later told me the man only survived because the other Witnesses spoonfed him and got him a job as a painter because he could use him arm a little bit.) The Nazis tried to force him to renounce his faith, but he wouldn't do it. So now as we're sitting in these hearings at Dachau , an SS guard is brought out and this crippled man says to me, 'This is the one that did it, that hung me up.' I was expecting him to stand up and testify against the guard. But he just sat there. When the officials were about to lead the former SS away, I told the Witness he'd better speak up while he had the chance. He refused. He said, "Vengeance belongs to Jehovah." I was furious at him. But at the same time, I admired him. Witnesses were sent to the camps because they dared to say "No," and now that we had freedom, he still stood by his faith in God. I didn't understand it, but it made a powerful impression on me. To make a long story short, when I immigrated to the United States, a Witness woman came to door in New York. I had no idea there were Witnesses in other places besides , and I just had to find out from her what had made the Witnesses so strong. In the process of understanding their faith, very gradually I found my own faith in God returning and growing. As I say in the film, I went from being a God-hater to a defender of God's name.

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:46 am
by _cinepro
John Larsen wrote: If I were God, I would have left the dementia--reliving horror part out.


That is pretty terrible. Sadly, the TBM part of my brain instantly recalled several arguments that are applicable. (First and foremost, it was the Nazis who set up the camps, and God couldn't infringe on their free agency and stop them. But the Allied forces could.).

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:18 am
by _The Dude
While neuroscientists have active research programs investigating why bad memories are suppressed by molecules and neurons -- for example the endogenous cannabanoid system exploited by marijuana -- the arm of the spirit tells us that memories persist for spiritual reasons. The continued suffering of Holocaust survivors represents their enduring ability to stand as witness against their terrestrial torturers. It is all part of God's plan for eternal justice. Once again, except for John Larsen's atheistic faith, this could easily be presented as proof of God's existence.

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:19 am
by _antishock8
Muslims deny that there was a Holocaust. These Jews must be liars.

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:25 am
by _solomarineris
cinepro wrote:
John Larsen wrote: If I were God, I would have left the dementia--reliving horror part out.


That is pretty terrible. Sadly, the TBM part of my brain instantly recalled several arguments that are applicable. (First and foremost, it was the Nazis who set up the camps, and God couldn't infringe on their free agency and stop them. But the Allied forces could.).


why r u torturing yourself?
When you know the answer... As you know Allied forces could but God couldn't.
Just be honest with yourself and discard all the BS hanging over you.
God is and illusion, Jesus is a major Jerk.

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:30 am
by _solomarineris
antishock8 wrote:Muslims deny that there was a Holocaust. These Jews must be liars.

I deny it too.
Worthless Israeli government rejects Genocide to line up with Turks.
Yea..I say too there was never a Holocaust.
As there was never a Genocide. (xcept 85% of my family was wiped out)
It is a survival game.
In a rathole.

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:58 am
by _John Larsen
solomarineris wrote:
antishock8 wrote:Muslims deny that there was a Holocaust. These Jews must be liars.

I deny it too.
Worthless Israeli government rejects Genocide to line up with Turks.
Yea..I say too there was never a Holocaust.
As there was never a Genocide. (xcept 85% of my family was wiped out)
It is a survival game.
In a rathole.

WTF?

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:55 am
by _The Nehor
Is it wrong that I find it funny that the critic ex-mormons on this board may in their dementia when they grow old believe they're LDS again?

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:59 am
by _Ray A
The Nehor wrote:Is it wrong that I find it funny that the critic ex-mormons on this board may in their dementia when they grow old believe they're LDS again?


That would be Double-Dementia. :lol: