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Hello Wade.

Here is my top 3 List:

1. The Book of Abraham.
2. Priesthood being withheld from Blacks.
3. Polygamy and Polyandry.

One of my issues is people who deny their sexual orientation and then in their fit of self-hatred attempt to badger others who may have their own personal issues in this matter.

fook

The failure of Moroni's promise.

My list today is different than it was 21 years ago when I left. Back then the list was topped by the temple ceremony and masonry. I was 34 before I went to the temple and was out of the church within 2 years. Before going to the temple the list was the black issue, polygamy, the lack of the use of the JST and the lack of ancient evidence for the Book of Mormon. But the crowning glory was the Book of Abraham, that was the last nail in the coffin.

Today it is still the Book of Abraham. That issue it just plain indefensible without argument. The rest of the list today is just longer and longer and longer than it was 21 years ago.

Hello Wade,
Thanks for asking, mine was really sad & traumatic;
I was offended.

I've never been LDS, but I think the Book of Abraham would have been a pivotal issue for me had I been a member.

Hi Wade,

If you want a list, here would be the top issues that harmed my faith:

1. Whitewashed/misleading history and doctrines (this led to feeling deceived)

2. Polygamy-the doctrine and practice (namely that it was taught and practiced as required for exaltation)

3. LDS Prophets-using “continuing revelation” to cover up mistakes, when solid doctrines are discarded as opinion

4. Blacks and the priesthood

5. Patriarchal order and inequality of women in temple covenants (namely it’s connection to polygamy)

6. The parallels between early Mormonism and other cults

7. Bruce R. McKonkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”- “Obviously the holy practice [polygamy] will commence again at the second coming…. and ushering in of the millennium.”

8. Doctrines that make no sense (e.g. sealing of children in a “forever family”, pre existence war, Satan, age of 8 accountability and automatic Celestial Kingdom ticket for children under that age, temple ordinances and temple work as required for salvation, permanent placement into Kingdoms after judgment, and the list goes on).

9. The Godhead-as a TBM I felt a desire for a personal relationship with my Savior like other Christians have but because of our doctrine on the Father and Son as different Gods, it was conflicting. The modalism in the Book of Mormon added more confusion to current LDS doctrine.

10. Book of Abraham

11. the lost pages (which even troubled me as a young girl)

12. Treasure hunting with the same method and seer stone used to translate the Book of Mormon

13. Testimony-I never had the sure witness or answer to my prayers others claim to, and I did everything in my power to get one

14. The focus on “true church” and Joseph Smith/LDS Prophets overshadows Christ,
and I don’t have the stomach for another Smithmas

15. Connection between Masonry/temple penalties and the secret society of Nauvoo polygamy


I think the most valuable answer I could give you is the catalyst that led me to study church history and doctrine outside of the safe church publications I had faithfully adhered to and trusted. Once I left the world of Chapel Mormonism I was exposed to the long list of troubling issues found at FAIR that I had never known existed.

The catalyst for me was feeling deceived by the church after an LDS friend innocently shared the Fanny Alger story with me (she was studying church history at the time) and later I read online the very disturbing story of the Heber C. Kimball “test” to give his wife Vilate to Joseph. I didn’t know Joseph had other mortal wives besides Emma so I was shocked to say the least.

Learning that the church had misled me on Joseph's marriage was the impetus to take the polygamy issue off my shelf. This led me to read books like “Mormon Enigma” and “In Sacred Loneliness”, visit FAIR and FARMS, and the websites with polygamy sermons from the Journal of Discourses and other LDS sources. I normally would have avoided those books or websites like the plague as a Chapel Mormon. I felt betrayed by the leaders and members who had misled me about polygamy. The apologetics I encountered led to more distrust.

There was a precise moment where I first felt my faith collapse……..
I was alternating my reading between the books Mormon Enigma and In Sacred Loneliness. I can’t recall which page it was but I know it was very early in the book. I had just learned of Joseph Smith’s treasure hunting and coercing women into plural marriage to gain exaltation. It was also troubling for me to read how radically different the Saints were compared to the modern day church today. ( e.g. speaking in tongues, calling Joseph "our God")
An immediate sickness came upon me, my gut and mind telling me that the early church was a cult. That Joseph Smith was no different than any other false prophet or cult leader. It was like the pieces of the puzzle all came together at that moment and for the first time in my life I feared the church might not be true.

It startled me how quickly and easily this information had destroyed my faith.
Even more terrifying that I didn’t know how to retain faith in Christ without my religion. They were inseparable at that time.

edit to add: I also had a very strong feeling when reading of Joseph Smith's secret marriages, that he introduced Masonry/penalties in the church to keep the inner circle of polygamy loyal and quiet.


All of the other issues I later learned like the Book of Abraham, polyandry, translation, etc. while very important to me were all secondary to the main problem I had- LDS Prophets.
If this church is led by Prophets of God as they claim to be, then these sermons to the church on plural marriage had to be true or the LDS church was in apostasy. As a woman, this doctrine negates any kind of desire for eternal marriage in the Celestial Kingdom or to build up the kingdom here on earth so my options were horrible on both sides.

Ultimately, it was learning that the church covers up past Prophets errors in doctrine with “continuing revelation” and discards them as “opinion” that did the most damage. For a church that was supposed to restore doctrines lost from an apostacy, it is not faring any better in the short time it’s been on earth. If the Prophets had it wrong on some very core doctrines like Blacks and the Priesthood, or polygamy, Adam God, etc. what else could be wrong? That damaged my faith in the claims of the church more than anything.

But I still serve a calling in church and appreciate the good principles they do teach.

Seven, I feel like you and I are kindred spirits in a lot of ways.

Wade, I don't know if you can really use my input here since I am an active member, but I do have doctrinal concerns. There are disconnects that I am currently struggling with, and have been struggling with for quite a while.

One concept that has bothered me since I was a kid, was the whole concept of not being able to progress to other kingdoms. On the one hand, we preach that families are forever, but, if you "fail your earthly test", then you are destined to be separated from, not only God, but your family, for all eternity. To me, this has always seemed like the ultimate hell. How could a loving Heavenly Father, who is all powerful, set up a system where you are unable to continue to learn, grow, and progress? If we believe in an eternal life, wouldn't it make sense that we would be able to continue to learn, grow, and understand new things? Shouldn't everyone be given that opportunity?

Should someone who is basically a good person....someone who has a good heart....someone who works his/her butt off for their family, is a good neighbor, and basically magnifies the ways of Christ really be separated from his/her family for eternity because he/she is a member of a church other than the LDS church?

Would a kind, loving Heavenly Father who claims to love his daughters create a marital system that is heart-wrenching? (i.e. plural marriage)

Wade, I have been sincere in asking TBM's both online and off about these things, and no one has been able to give me a straight-forward answer. If you, or any other TBM's who frequent the board would care to discuss these issues in an honest, respectful manner, either in the Celestial Forum, or via Private Message, I would seriously be very interested. My testimony is at a serious crossroad, and has been, for quite a while because of both of these issues.

Wade, good to see you back. I have missed you.

I had two people I know this last year draw back from the Church because of the Church's political involvement. Perhaps you could include this one on your list, since I would like to see these two friends return some day. My only fear is that even deleterious policies will be rigorously defended by apologists rather than allow these policies, that lead to members leaving, to be earnestly examined.

In case anybody hasn't seen this, here is Wade's MAD post Is anti-Mormon material relevant to the verity of the restored gospel? It appears the current questions are intended to gather data in support of this thesis.

From my multi-decade experience reading and interacting with anti-Mormons, I have yet to come across anything they have said which I see as having direct bearing upon whether the Church is what it claims to be and will do for us what it is intended to do. In short, I don't see the relevance of anti-Mormon material to the intent of the Church and its "truth" in relation thereto.

To illustrate what I mean, one of the less honorable of our anti-Mormon friends has been fond of using the analogy of buying a car as likened to joining the Church. I actually think the analogy is useful, though not in the way he supposes.

As it turns out, I have a good friend who is currently in the market to buy a car. In deciding among the numours options available to her--including not buying a car at all, she is wisely conditioning her decisions based on a set carefully chosen objectives: durability/reliability, navigatable in the snow, comfort, asthetics, and value. And, after considerable research, she has decided to focus her buying attention on the Lexus RX 300 series. In short, she has at least some faith that the Lexus RX is "true".

Suppose, though, were she to come across an anti-Lexus tabloid claiming that the founder of Lexus was married to multiple women, one of whom was in her mid teens. Should this rock my friends faith in the Lexus?

I don't think it should. The private marital affairs of the founder of Lexus has no relevance to whether the Lexus meets the stated objectives of my friend and/or the stated intent of the Lexus automobile.

Suppose also that the same anti-Lexus tabloid complained that this "negative" aspect of Lexus history was not taught in Lexus courses, and went on to raise questions about whether the Lexus owner's manual was written when it is claimed to have been written, and written by whom it was claimed to have been written. Should this rock my friends faith in the Lexus?

Again, for the reasons mentioned earlier, I think not. And, the list goes on.

To me, the same principle applies to having faith in the restored gospel of Christ. It should rest on whether the gospel is what it claims to be and will produce the results it is designed to produce, and not on certain supposed "negative" aspects of Church history, or the the suppose lack of disclosure thereof, or debatable questions raised about owner's manual authorship.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-