DiscussMormonism.com

Sometimes it's effective to look at things very simply. Part of what draws me to Christianity is that Jesus was willing to die for what He believed in, as well as many other Christians.

What are the Brethren of the Mormon Church doing? They're collecting tithing money and living very long and happy lives off it. Jesus took on unbelievers and all sorts. Yet I rarely see higher ranking Mormon leaders do missionary work. They sure wouldn't talk on this board. Do they go to third world countries, eat garbage, and wreck their health to spread the gospel? But Jesus did and so did Joseph Smith to a large extent in my view.

But it almost seems cyclic. As the religion gets stronger and more powerful in terms of worldly strength, it somehow loses it's initial virtue. We've seen it in the difference between Holy Roman Empire and the initially persecuted Christians, and I think we're seeing it again as the Mormon Church goes from being chased by mobs to hard nosed businessmen flexing its economic muscle.

Hi Ajax, nice post!

I recall many years ago, as a TBM, after spending considerable time focusing on the Gospels, pondering, meditating, fasting upon its truth and teachings, having a little "awakening" as I noticed the difference between the teachings and ministry of Christ and that of the LDS church.

My impression at the time was that Christ went out, taught on a hill, and invited anyone who wanted to come to him; he had no church, didn't require payments, particular dress, nor did he ask for worthiness. He taught of meekness, gentleness, releasing the need for rigidness, earthly judgments by male leaders, etc. etc. There was no need for PR depts, manipulative selling, or hiding secret history. He taught of a new way to live with respect and love.

Compared to the power, glory, and authoritarian LDS leaders along with the near obsession with buildings, appearance, lineage, money, and fame, it really struck me.

But at the time I dismissed my thoughts "knowing" Christ was at the helm of the LDS church and directing it personally.

Actually last night I had a dream, which is a little fuzzy now so can't recall all the details, but Christ was on the earth today (it was not the second coming but he was just here... smile) and started teaching as he did long ago. There was no actual church to join or attend just an emphasis on living more kindly.

~td~

Ray A wrote:

Runtu wrote:I'm guessing his next step will be to remind us why none of this is relevant because it has nothing to do with the seed analogy in Alma and Moroni's promise.

Wade believes that Alma 32 and Moroni 10 make the whole of Mormonism true, to the last jot and tittle. So he's prepared to justify polygamy, or anything in Mormonism, because the Book of Mormon came from Joseph's pen/mouth.

In other words, no one ever has an excuse to leave Mormonism. It's sort of like a Catholic saying that because the Bible is true nothing the Catholic Church ever did, or taught, is really all that bad since it springs from One and Only Eternal Truth.

Hmm. Well then in that case, here are my two top problems that caused me to lose faith in the LDS church:

1) I questioned and eventually rejected Moroni's promise' claim to be a reliable epistemology.
2) I planted the seed, nurtured it, but found out that it was nothing more than Symplocarpus foetidus

nor did he ask for worthiness

It's an old engineering principal. Engineers simplify things to understand them. Lawyers complicate things to paint a new picture. When I answered questions of extremly complex chemical reactions in a chemical plant, I remember it always started with, "This is what we know is going in. This is what we know is coming out." Joseph Smith always said by their fruits ye shall know them. So looking at the big picture, what is going into Salt Lake, and what is coming back out?

I think I understand what you're saying as to how the LDS church currently asks for worthiness to take the sacrament, participate in meetings etc.

I do think some people take forgiveness a little to far with conclusions like, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission." I always pictured Jesus as one who believed that what do counts, which is why I've always latched onto my signature line scripture. I've had many atheist express disatisfaction with Christianity in that many Christians believe that you can live an immoral life and still inherit what those who exert themselves to live morally do with just a few prayers. I personally don't see Jesus or Christianity that way, but admittedly many Christians do believe this.

As I said before, I believe in the scriptures and do believe there is such a thing as spiritual knowledge in that I was able to recognize truth that we can't empirically prove. But I still can't piece together where this whole idea of belonging to a specific church originated. Nor do any near death experiences cause people to join a particular church, but they do often cause people to live different lives.