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The following was posted to the Recovery Board by Richard Packham. You can read the thread here.

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Why did Joseph Smith (assuming that his report of the FV in the Pearl of Great Price is accurate) simply assume that the personages he saw were God and Christ?

They did NOT identify themselves! The one only identified the other as "my Beloved Son." Did he think that God is the only supernatural being that has a "beloved son"?

Did he apply any of the tests to identify a messenger from God? Did he offer to shake hands? (D&C 129:8) Did he check the color of his hair? (Teachings of the PJS p 214)

NO!

Those beings could just have easily (and more likely?) been the Devil or servants of the Devil. Here's what the scriptures say about Satan's abilities to deceive:

• He can appear as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14 (see also D&C 128:20, 129:8)
• He will seem to be like God. 2 Thess 2:4
• He will not be exposed as the devil until the end of time. 2 Thess 2:8
• He will be able to deceive even the "elect" (i.e., the righteous and the saved). Matt 24:24, Mark 13:22

Even more telling are the characteristics of the church that was founded by Smith after that "vision" - all are scriptural descriptions of the Devil and his followers:

• He (and his followers?) believe that they will be like God. Isaiah 14:13-14
• The devil's followers are whoever sins (the righteous - the followers of God - do not sin). 1 John 3:6-9
• Feelings are the imaginations of the heart (and are deceptive; thus they may come from Satan) Jer 17:9 (also 3:17, 7:24, 9:14, 11:8, 16:12)
• Every man thinks that he is right (implicitly, this includes even those who are deceived; thus, even though you may think you are right, you may still be deceived). Prov 21:2
• Those who think they are standing (i.e. correct) will fall. 1 Cor 10:12
• His followers will seem (and claim) to be apostles of Christ. 2 Cor 11:13-14, Matt 24:4-5, 24:23-26, Mark 13:21-22
• His followers will be able to do miracles and wonders. Matt 24:24, Mark 13:22
• He will tempt with the promise of dominion and power. Matt 4:8-9, Luke 4:5-7
• The devil's false prophets lie; true prophets of God do not. Deut 13:1-3, 18:20-22, Isa 9:15, Jer 5:31, 14:14, 1 John 2:21, many other passages
• But sometimes the devil will tell a truth (Mark 1:24, Luke 4:33-34, 41, Gen 2:4-5)

These are all characteristics of Mormons and the Mormon church.

Do the "prophets" of the Mormon church LIE? Even though they sometimes tell a truth?

Definitely YES!

That's your Conference Weekend counter-sermon.

Pass it on!

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I must admit, even as a believer, it never occurred to me to question the church's version of the identity of the two personages who (supposedly) appeared to Joseph Smith in the First Vision.

Kudos to Richard Packham for bringing all this to our attention!

I think some enterprising person ought to submit that question to the Ensign, MADB, and every First Vision apologist on the planet. I suspect the only answer is a testimony.

Yep, well, it's a b***s*** story, so of course it's going to have problems. If we all thought like police officers or lawyers rather than civilians, things like this would more likely occur to us.

The first vision story can be thanked for my very first questioning of the church as a young boy. It is just so outrageously unbelievable, that even a child can see through it and just say, "Yeah... sure... whatever floats your boat."

In fact, I remember a gentlemen from our ward gave a talk once, speaking about the first vision and his conversion story. He recounted that when they told him the story and his reaction was, "Hahaha... you actually believe that?!" As a young boy of about 10-11, I remember that having a profound effect on me. I thought, "No doubt!" He went on to say, "But it's true. I know that now. It's so true..." and I was thinking, "How do you go from your initial reaction to believing that silliness?" He never really explained it except in the standard fanciful way: The "Holy Spirit" (tm).

Looking back, it's funny to me that my epiphany came from his telling of his sensible, reasonable first reaction to the story, and not the testimony of his self induced, supernatural inoculation.

You know, I never questioned the story as a TBM. If God wanted to talk to His children, why couldn't He just show up? Who am I to place restrictions on what God can or cannot do?

I would also submit, though, that the Mormon God most typifies the God of the Old Testament (which brings a little credence to the official FV story):

1) He's jealous
2) He loses His temper, killing and breaking His creations - including his children (is there such a thing as righteous wrath?)
3) He forces, threatens and frightens His children into submission
4) He spoils them and then destroys them complaining that they have been overcome by the worldly things He has given them.
5) He has favorite children and commands them to destroy and then take the riches of His non-favorite children.
6) The lives of His non-favorite children have little mortal significance
7) He calls upon immoral men to represent Him and His uptopian society - societies that fail in ever predictible cycles.
8) He calls this love and perfect Fatherhood and wants us to become just like him.

So which Son is more like their Father?

Satan or Jesus?

Interesting ideas. Of course, some might also find it suspicious that Joseph asked which, of all the existing Christian, Bible-believing Churches he should join?...and the answer was...."None of them." While that doesn't mean it wasn't God doing the talking, it certainly could be argued that that is the exact answer Satan would give too.

But Joseph felt peaceful after the encounter, and everyone knows that Satan can't give someone a peaceful feeling.

This has been asked many times by Evangelicals.

Packham's batteries must be running low.

cinepro wrote:
But Joseph felt peaceful after the encounter, and everyone knows that Satan can't give someone a peaceful feeling.

That is why the pleasures of the flesh are so - ugh - distasteful. No peace here. Now, move along....

Isn't this an EV accusation? I know they think Moroni was Satan disguised as an angel of light, so I suspect they think the same thing about the First Vision.

One giant thought is that in the Book of Mormon a familar spirit speaking from the dust is suppose to be of good but n the Bible when a familar spirit is speaking from the dust it's from evil and is associated with divining (like Joseph) or wizards and things like that and they are told to stay away from it.

beastie wrote:Isn't this an EV accusation? I know they think Moroni was Satan disguised as an angel of light, so I suspect they think the same thing about the First Vision.

A few do, some Jehovah's Witnesses are especially clear on this belief and warn about angels coming preaching other gospels.