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God's Astronomy Lesson

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:28 am
by _Gazelam
In the Old Testament, Job received a sort of astronomy lesson from God that reveals an amount of knowledge of the stars far beyond anything that technology could have shown the author of Job at the time it was written.

In Job 38:31, God says to Job, "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?". Thousands of years after this question was posed to Job, late-nineteenth-century astronomers finally possessed telescopes and other equiptment strong and accurate enough to shed light on the question's full meaning.

They showed that orion's band (around what would be considered the waist of the figure in the constellation) consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars about equally spaced and of the most striking beauty. Yet each of the stars is travelling in a different direction and at a different speed. In the course of time, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form what will be seen by the naked eye as a double star. The third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In fact, all the stars constituting the constellation of Orion are bound for different ports, and all are journeying to various corners of the universe, so that the bands are being dissolved - precisely as God said in his answer to Job.
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Re: God's Astronomy Lesson

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:03 am
by _Ray A
Gazelam wrote: The third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In fact, all the stars constituting the constellation of Orion are bound for different ports, and all are journeying to various corners of the universe, so that the bands are being dissolved - precisely as God said in his answer to Job.


Orion is mentioned in Homer's Odyssey (c.800 BC), and the name derives from Greek mythology. It's also present in Australian Aboriginal mythology:

Orion is also important in Australian Aboriginal Astronomy. For example, the Yolngu people of Arnhem Land say that the constellation of Orion, which they call Julpan, is a canoe. They tell the story of two brothers who went fishing, and caught and ate a fish that was forbidden under their law. Seeing this, the Sun sent a waterspout that carried the two brothers and their canoe up into the sky where they became the Orion constellation.

Re: God's Astronomy Lesson

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:41 am
by _Chap
Gazelam wrote:In the Old Testament, Job received a sort of astronomy lesson from God that reveals an amount of knowledge of the stars far beyond anything that technology could have shown the author of Job at the time it was written.

In Job 38:31, God says to Job, "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?". Thousands of years after this question was posed to Job, late-nineteenth-century astronomers finally possessed telescopes and other equiptment strong and accurate enough to shed light on the question's full meaning.

They showed that orion's band (around what would be considered the waist of the figure in the constellation) consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars about equally spaced and of the most striking beauty. Yet each of the stars is travelling in a different direction and at a different speed. In the course of time, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form what will be seen by the naked eye as a double star. The third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In fact, all the stars constituting the constellation of Orion are bound for different ports, and all are journeying to various corners of the universe, so that the bands are being dissolved - precisely as God said in his answer to Job.
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This is truly silly stuff. No telescope is required to know that Orion's belt is composed of three stars arranged (for a terrestrial observer) in a straight line.

All the stars in the sky have an apparent "proper motion" (caused by the combination of their real motion through space and that of our sun) , which will eventually result in the disruption of any star pattern currently visible.

If the ancient writer had put words into the mouth of his deity such as

"Behold! Thou thinkest that the patterns of stars in the sky are fixed for eternity, but I THE LORD have given unto each star its own motion, so that all the patterns thereof shall be unmade and made into new ones while millions of generations of the children of men go down to Sheol. For unto me the stars are as bees that fly about in a summer field. For my generations are not as thine, saith THE LORD"

THEN (and only then) you might have had a point. As it is, there is no reason whatsoever to read the biblical text as referring to proper motion.

Re: God's Astronomy Lesson

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:26 pm
by _truth dancer
In the Old Testament, Job received a sort of astronomy lesson from God that reveals an amount of knowledge of the stars far beyond anything that technology could have shown the author of Job at the time it was written.


Why do you think this Gaz?

Did you come up with this or did you get this from someone else?

In Job 38:31, God says to Job, "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?". Thousands of years after this question was posed to Job, late-nineteenth-century astronomers finally possessed telescopes and other equiptment strong and accurate enough to shed light on the question's full meaning.


How much research did you do to come up with the belief that it is only now that humans could understand the question? Do you know much about telescopes? About ancient understanding of the heavens? World mythology?

They showed that orion's band (around what would be considered the waist of the figure in the constellation) consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars about equally spaced and of the most striking beauty. Yet each of the stars is travelling in a different direction and at a different speed. In the course of time, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form what will be seen by the naked eye as a double star. The third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In fact, all the stars constituting the constellation of Orion are bound for different ports, and all are journeying to various corners of the universe, so that the bands are being dissolved - precisely as God said in his answer to Job.


I don't see God explaining this but regardless, have you read much about the ancient understanding of the stars?

See, this is the problem with apologetics... putting information out there that makes no sense whatsoever but yet it is believed as if it were fact.

~td~

Re: God's Astronomy Lesson

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:48 pm
by _Tiktaalik
Here's a little more context from Job 38:

18Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?


The questioner is asking rhetorical questions to Job in an attempt to instil humility. He's not giving a lesson in astronomy.

Re: God's Astronomy Lesson

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:03 pm
by _Tiktaalik
In addition, if you're going to score a "hit" for the fact that Orion's belt will eventually be "loosed" because the stars are travelling in different directions, are you willing to score a "miss" for the reference to Pleiades' being "bound" when in fact, the cluster will eventually break up due to different gravitational pulls within its stellar neighbourhood?

What about a "miss" for the fact that ice doesn't come forth from a womb? What about the fact that "dew" has no parents?

If you're going to interpret ancient poetry in such a simplistic and literal way, you should at least be consistent.

Re: God's Astronomy Lesson

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:11 am
by _solomarineris
Gazelam wrote:In the Old Testament, Job received a sort of astronomy lesson from God that reveals an amount of knowledge of the stars far beyond anything that technology could have shown the author of Job at the time it was written.

In Job 38:31, God says to Job, "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?". Thousands of years after this question was posed to Job, late-nineteenth-century astronomers finally possessed telescopes and other equiptment strong and accurate enough to shed light on the question's full meaning.

They showed that orion's band (around what would be considered the waist of the figure in the constellation) consists of an almost perfectly straight line of second-magnitude stars about equally spaced and of the most striking beauty. Yet each of the stars is travelling in a different direction and at a different speed. In the course of time, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form what will be seen by the naked eye as a double star. The third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist. In fact, all the stars constituting the constellation of Orion are bound for different ports, and all are journeying to various corners of the universe, so that the bands are being dissolved - precisely as God said in his answer to Job.

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Why don't you share this knowledge here;
http://www.bautforum.com/
You'd take the cake of the stupidest poster of the day.

Re: The Book Job shows how insensitive, cruel contemporary men

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:30 am
by _solomarineris
were.
Do you have a family you love?
One day this idiot God, while haveing good time with Satan, bets him that Job will
remain faithful to him, even if he destroys his family.
-Satan happily obliges.
-God Kills every member of Jobs family...wife children, animals, you name it....
And then he rewards Job for his faithfulness with a brand new set of wife, children, animals.....

Would you like to trade your family for a better set of family...
That is exactly what this idiot God promises.

And...what was the subject?
Astronomy?
We are dealing with a cold blooded Murderous God here.

Re: The Book Job shows how insensitive, cruel contemporary men

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:18 am
by _harmony
solomarineris wrote:were.
Do you have a family you love?
One day this idiot God, while haveing good time with Satan, bets him that Job will
remain faithful to him, even if he destroys his family.
-Satan happily obliges.
-God Kills every member of Jobs family...wife children, animals, you name it....
And then he rewards Job for his faithfulness with a brand new set of wife, children, animals.....

Would you like to trade your family for a better set of family...
That is exactly what this idiot God promises.

And...what was the subject?
Astronomy?
We are dealing with a cold blooded Murderous God here.


We're dealing with an ancient people who tried to make sense of the world they lived in. That they put words into God's mouth is a given; that we need believe those words were really God's words is not a given.

Re: The Book Job shows how insensitive, cruel contemporary men

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:04 pm
by _truth dancer
solomarineris wrote:were.
Do you have a family you love?
One day this idiot God, while haveing good time with Satan, bets him that Job will
remain faithful to him, even if he destroys his family.
-Satan happily obliges.
-God Kills every member of Jobs family...wife children, animals, you name it....
And then he rewards Job for his faithfulness with a brand new set of wife, children, animals.....

Would you like to trade your family for a better set of family...
That is exactly what this idiot God promises.

And...what was the subject?
Astronomy?
We are dealing with a cold blooded Murderous God here.


Yeah this story doesn't do a lot to promote the idea that God is good. :-( Of course, I think it was made up by a seriously ego-centric, selfish guy who didn't really care all that much for his family and basically was into having stuff and gaining wealth and power but what is most disturbing is when I hear people defend this story as demonstrating God's ways.

All I can say is that I truly HOPE this story has NOTHING to do with God or we are all in serious trouble!

:ugeek: