Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

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_Kevin Graham
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Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Earlier today I decided to write up a response to Will's claim that the testimonials suggest the Book of Abraham came from a missing papyrus. He responded by 1. outing me so the mods would immediately ban me (which they did) 2. faulting me for typos and 3. accusing me of relying on Vogel and Metcalfe for my "sudden acquisition of historical minutia." The funniest thing about that last comment is I managed to come up with this on my own, within an hour. Will acts like I must have broken into the Church vault or something, apparently because he couldn't get these documents, even with the help of six apologists! Anyway, enjoy...

Will Schryver scolds critics:
Critics don't like the Haven and Blanchard quotes (and others) that speak of the long roll.

Others? He hasn't even managed to produce two here. It appears Will hasn't read the Blanchard quotation which he fails to provide for his audience, since it says nothing about its length. Incidentally, it appears Will lifted that entire section of his article from John Gee's, "New Light on the Joseph Smith Papyri." This is from Gee:
a quantity of records, written on papyrus, in Egyptian hieroglyphics,"32 including (1) some papyri "preserved under glass,"33 described as "a number of glazed slides, like picture frames, containing sheets of papyrus, with Egyptian inscriptions and hieroglyphics";34 (2) "a long roll of manuscript"35 that contained the Book of Abraham;36 (3) "another roll";37 (4) and "two or three other small pieces of papyrus with astronomical calculations, epitaphs, &c."38

And now from Will's latest apologetic, changing only the footnote numbers:
a quantity of records, written on papyrus, in Egyptian hieroglyphics,’2 including (1) some papyri ‘preserved under glass,’3 described as ‘a number of glazed slides, like picture frames, containing sheets of papyrus, with Egyptian inscriptions and hieroglyphics’;4 (2) ‘a long roll of manuscript’5 that contained the Book of Abraham;6 (3) ‘another roll’;7 and (4) ‘two or three other small pieces of papyrus, with astronomical calculations, epitaphs, &c.’”8

I guess I'm confused about why no citation was provided from Blanchard. Here is the relevant portion from the source, found in Relief Society Magazine, January, 1922:
What fun we had with Aunt Emma's boys, Joseph, Frederick, Alexander and David. How we raced through the house playing hide and seek. My favorite hiding place was in an old wardrobe which contained the mummies, and it was in here that I would creep while the others searched the house. There were three mummies: "The old Egyptian king, the queen and their daughter. The bodies were wrapped in seven layers of linen cut in thin strips. In the arms of the Old King, lay the roll of papyrus from which our prophet translated the Book of Abraham"


Contrary to Will, there is nothing to indicate the roll's length.

So let's move to the testimony of Charlotte Haven, in its context from Overland Monthly, "A Girl's Letters from Nauvoo," pp.623-624. What follows is a more detailed version of the testimony that you will not find in any apologetic treatment of the matter, for reasons soon to be obvious:

...we called on Joseph's mother, passing the site of the Nauvoo House, a spacious hotel, the first floor only laid. It is like the Temple in being erected on the tithe system, and when finished will surpass in splendor any hotel in the State. Here Joseph and his heirs for generations are to have apartments free of expense, and they think the crowned heads of Europe will rusticate beneath its roof. Madam Smith's residence is a log house very near her son's. She opened the door and received us cordially. She is a motherly kind of woman of about sixty years. She receives a little pittance by exhibiting The mummies to strangers. When we asked to see them, she lit a candle and conducted us up a short narrow stairway to a low, dark room under the roof. On one side were standing half a dozen mummies, to whom she introduced us, King Onitus and his royal household, -- one she did not know.

Then she took up what seemed to be a club wrapped in a dark cloth, and said, "This is the leg of Pharaoh's daughter, the one that saved Moses." Repressing a smile, I looked from the mummies to the old lady, but could detect nothing but earnestness and sincerity on her countenance. Then she turned to a long table, set her candlestick down, and opened a long roll of manuscript, saying it was, "the writing of Abraham and Isaac, written in Hebrew and Sancrit," and she read several minutes from it as if it were English. It sounded very much like passages from the Old Testament. - and it might have been for anything we knew - but she said she read it through the inspiration of her son Joseph, in whom she seemed to have perfect confidence. Then in the same way she interpreted to us hieroglyphics from another roll. One was Mother Eve being tempted by the serpent, who - the serpent, I mean - was standing on the tip of his tail, which with his two legs formed a tripod, and had his head in Eve's ear. I said, "But serpents don't have legs."

"They did before the fall," she asserted with perfect confidence. The Judge slipped a coin in her hand which she received smilingly, with a pleasant, "Come again," as we bade her goodby.

Now Will assures us that critics just,
want to diminish their reliability on the basis of the fact that these were young women who probably weren't really paying close attention to what was going on. I find that attitude condescending and naïve.

As is so often his wont, Will misrepresents the arguments from critics and LDS scholars alike. Yes, you heard me correctly. According to LDS scholar, Jay M. Todd:
One wonders if Charlotte is reporting accurately. Until more evidence is gathered, the sum and value of Charlotte's report remains clouded on several issues." (The Saga of the Book of Abraham, by Jay M. Todd, page 249)

The reason her testimony is considered questionable by reasonable standards of evidence, isn't because she was just a "young woman," but because we know her memory was clouded and she did not properly describe the material. She says they were written in Sanscrit, which we know is false. She says it included records of Isaac, which we know is false. She mentions two records on one roll, which from the more reliable account of William I. Appleby, we know to be false. She also fails to correctly describe the snake with legs (it wasn't standing on its tail). But William is dead certain her use of the word "long" must be dead accurate, assuming her perception of long is more than several feet.

It seems more likely that the papyri slides or sheets were laid out on the table back to back, appearing as one long roll. It is unrealistic to think Granny Smith would be constantly "rolling" and "unrolling" an eroding ancient document that was to be shown to strangers on a regular basis. The whole idea was to keep the collection preserved, and they were cut and glued to slides for preservation.

The reason apologetic versions of the Haven account never include the context probably has something to do with the fact that what Haven describes is clearly part of the extant material. She doesn't describe the serpent portion perfectly, but it is obvious she is referring to the same scene properly described by Appleby below.

All of this throws cold water on any hopes of establishing a missing source for the Book of Abraham, when she claims to be looking right at it!
when you stop to consider what kinds of things an 18-year-old woman would most notice in such an experience, it would be the kinds of elements we read in Haven's account: the length of the roll and the nature of the illustrations on the papyrus itself.

The last apologetic hope, it seems, must be hanging on the word "long." So how long is long? By what method does Will propose in determining Haven's meaning of the word "long"? He doesn't say. It seems he's just content to assert long means extremely long or maybe outrageously long, when it could very well be just a few feet, when comparing it to the other scraps. Will says Haven has given us the length of the roll. She hasn't. "Long" doesn't tell us the length anymore than "heavy" gives us the weight.

Will is clearly unaware of the fact that the Haven account has been address on numerous occassion over the past three decades, and only recently has the Blanchard reference been thrown into the mix, leading impressionable folks to believe it somehow counts as a second independent witness for the supposed, "long" description.

Since Will wants to accuse critics of being afraid of these so-called devastating eye-witness accounts, I suppose this would be a good time to ask him why John Gee finally got around to acknowledging the William I. Appleby account in 1999, but failed to provide the context that essentially refuted the argument he was trying to make. What follows is the full context of this statement from his journal entry of May 5, 1841:

To day I paid Br Joseph a visit. Saw the Rolls of papyrus and the writings thereon, taken from off the bosom of the Male Mummy, having some of the writings of ancient Abraham and of Joseph that was sold in Egypt. The writings are chiefly in the Egyptian language with the exception of a little Hebrew. I believe they give a description of some of the scenes in Ancient Egypt, of their worship, their Idol gods, etc. The writings are beautiful and plain, composed of red, and black inks. There is a perceptible difference, between the writings. Joseph, appears to have been the best scribe. There are representations of men, beasts, Birds, Idols and oxen attached to a kind of plough, a female guiding it. Also the serpent when he beguiled Eve. He appears with two legs, erect in form and appearance of man. But his head in the form, and representing the Serpent, with his forked tongue extended. There are likewise representations of an Alter erected, with a man bound and laid thereon, and a Priest with a knife in his hand, standing at the foot, with a dove over the person bound on the Altar with several Idol gods standing around it. A Celestial globe with the planet Kolob of first creation of the supreme being - a planet of light, - which planet - makes a revolution once in a thousand years, - Also the Lord revealing the Grand key words of the Holy Priesthood, to Adam in the garden of Eden, as also to Seth, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, and to all whom the Priesthood was revealed.

Abraham also in the Court of Pharaoh sitting upon the King's throne reasoning upon Astronomy, with a crown on his head, representing the Priesthood as emblematical of the grand Presidency in Heaven. And King Pharaoh, standing behind him, together with a Prince - a principle waiter, and a black slave of the King. A genealogy of the Mummies, and the Epitaphs and their deaths, etc., etc., are also distinctly represented on the Papyrus which is called the "Book of Abraham."

The Male mummy was one of the Ancient Pharaohs of Egypt, a Priest, as he is embalmed with his tongue extended, representing a speaker: The females were his wife and two daughters, as a part of the writing has been translated, and informs us, who they were, also whose writing it is, and when those mummies were embalmed, which is nearly four thousand years ago.

Appleby goes into strenuous detail in explaining what exactly it was he saw. He confirms that there is a "perceptible difference" between the writings of Abraham and Joseph, pointing out that "Joseph was the better scribe." This clearly points to the Breathings text as the source for the Book of Abraham, which, as Ed Ashment pointed out nearly two decades ago that:
despite Nibley, the evidence indicates that the Book of Abraham was developed from "that badly written, poorly preserved little text, entirely devoid of rubrics, which is today identified as the [Breathing Permit of Hor]."

Contrary to Will's assertion, the abundance of eye-witness testimony describing the Joseph Smith Papyri collection point us directly to extant portions that we can clearly identify. But I guess it is easy to make these arguments when you're only showing a fraction of the testimonies, divorced from their contexts.
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_Runtu
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Runtu »

One minor quibble: Jay Todd is not an LDS scholar. He was the managing editor of Church magazines back in the early 1990s when I was working there.

I was kind of surprised at how quickly Will outed you. I particularly enjoyed his plagiarism of Gee.
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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Kevin, do you have a link to the MADthread in question?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Kevin Graham »

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 3278&st=40

But all of my posts have been removed, so the thread no longer makes sense.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Kevin Graham »

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 3278&st=40

But all of my posts have been removed, so the thread no longer makes sense.
_Trevor
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Trevor »

Thanks for posting this, Kevin. I am eager to see what rebuttal, if any, will be forthcoming from the apologetic side. It seems to me that you have offered a fairly damning critique of the misuse of this evidence by apologists. What I want to know, however, and in fairness, is whether they can demonstrate otherwise.
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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Trevor wrote:Thanks for posting this, Kevin. I am eager to see what rebuttal, if any, will be forthcoming from the apologetic side. It seems to me that you have offered a fairly damning critique of the misuse of this evidence by apologists. What I want to know, however, and in fairness, is whether they can demonstrate otherwise.


They probably won't bother, at least not on MAD, not right now. They are far too busy climbing the walls in ecstasy over R. Abanes's misreading of a Quinn quote. (Now, did the Mopologists behave this same way when Greg Smith made up that ugly business about Bob McCue and his wife? I kind of think not.)

Edited to add:

The mod's final bit was quite funny, in my opinion:

Nemesis/Juliann wrote:As always and every time Kevin Graham comes to this board we will delete his posts and ban his account. All posts responding to his posts will be deleted as well. Except for T-Shirts post for obvious reasons.


And here is T-shirts's post:

T-shirt wrote:Kevin, in all seriousness, you have a knack for making people not want to talk to you, and it has nothing to do with the strength of your arguments.

I wish you well,
T-Shirt

P.S. You are just as much of an apologist as those you criticize.


I have to admire the sheer charity of a poster who makes such a comment to a poster who cannot reply due to having been banned. Way to go, T-shirt!
Last edited by Guest on Sat May 16, 2009 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Kishkumen
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Kishkumen »

It just keeps getting increasingly worse for Wee Willy. And I wonder, by what act of rhetorical trickery will he try to wriggle his way out of this one?

Where are these reliable, contemporary sources who attest to a lengthy scroll? Would someone do us a solid by gathering them in a single post so we can be the judges and we need not rely on the deft obfuscations of the apologists?
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Thanks Trev,

I am just disappointed to see Book of Abraham being taken backwards by Will Schryver. I mean seriously, Charlotte Haven? This is old news and Will is such an infant in ths arena he doesn't even realize it. She was one of my sources when I wrote my FAIR article, "A Case for the Missing Papyrus" back in 2001. My discussion with Brent Metcalfe prompted me to ask FAIR to remove it because it was filled with one flmsy reference after another. Will hopes to resurrect them with a new shine, but he doesn't know anything about source criticism. None of these guys do.

Every source they try to use ends up as another example of apologetic malpractice. Perhaps the worst one was the rubrics argument by Nibley and Rhodes, and then the Gustavo Seyffarth con that Gee tried to pull over on us.

In Gee's "New Light on the Joseph Smith Papyri," the only thing "new" was his use of the Blanchard reference, which turns out to prove nothing. Why not provide the citations you're relying on? Why assume your audience has to just trust your judgment? It is unscholarly to say the least. Nibley pulled this crap and the rest are just following his method, assuming nobody would check their sources they way nobody checked Nbley's. The irony is that whenever the Tanners use ellipses or fail to provide a citation the apologists jump all over their case and say it is evidence they aren't true scholars, and worse, that they are trying to deceive!

Well, why the double standard? That sledge hammer swings both ways. But when we call them out for deception, oh no, we're just being too uncharitable and intolerable! They deserve the benefit of the doubt, no one else.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

Post by _Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch wrote:They probably won't bother, at least not on MAD, not right now. They are far too busy climbing the walls in ecstasy over R. Abanes's misreading of a Quinn quote.


Well, I am sure it is easier to go for the low-hanging fruit. Kevin presents too much of a challenge to these poor folks. Why else would they find it necessary to ban him automatically? I mean, he can be caustic, but the knee-jerk banning suggests that they are really quite frightened of Kevin. No one could be more intimidating than the former apologist who comes to the realization that there is something decidedly rank in the Mopologetic brownie.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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