The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

[_CaliforniaKid]

In the movie V for Vendetta, the protagonist (Evey) "is incarcerated and tortured for days, which includes the length of her hair being shorn off, leaving her with a concentration camp-style crew cut. Finding solace only in notes left by another prisoner, Valerie, Evey is told that she will be executed unless she reveals V's whereabouts. Evey says she would rather die. She is then released. Evey discovers that her imprisonment was staged by V, to free her from fear of the fascist government."

Some of my friends seemed to think this was cool, but it ruined the movie for me. If I was Evey and I found out I'd been manipulated like that, I'd have said, "oh hell no," and kicked V's ass for that. I thought it was extremely lame that she just went along with it. Like the serial victims who stay with abusive husbands.

Anyway, the idea that this life is a "probationary state" is kind of like that for me. You get to the end, having suffered, sweated, loved and bled, only to be told that it was all a "test"? Those folks in the concentration camps were just trying to get an "A" on Heavenly Father's little exam? Hell with that. I'd rather believe it's all meaningless than believe God is pulling a "V" and subjecting people to torture just to perversely test their mettle. He may be the brightest of the intelligences, but that doesn't give him the right to set up an entrance exam for admission to his celestial utopian republic and send all the failures to the "other" kingdoms. If God was really good, he'd let us all participate in the celestial society on equal footing from the very beginning, and let us work through things and learn from our mistakes in real life as a community. Sort of like what we do here on earth. Frankly, the celestial kingdom sounds a bit too much like Mensa for my taste.

Peace,

-Chris

[_Inconceivable]

To say that this life will be the sum of all tests to qualify ourselves for the next step toward our exalted state with Him, defies even basic scrutiny.

If this is the only lifetime we have to prepare to meet God, he truly deserves the group of ignorant, shallow, uncompassionate and unrefined group that only wore one pair of moccosins.

Why would I have jumped for joy in the pre-existance for this all or nothing crap shoot?

Were my brother Hitler and my sister Anne Frank jumping just as high as the Mormons?

[_Kishkumen]

I'd rather believe it's all meaningless than believe God is pulling a "V" and subjecting people to torture just to perversely test their mettle. He may be the brightest of the intelligences, but that doesn't give him the right to set up an entrance exam for admission to his celestial utopian republic and send all the failures to the "other" kingdoms. If God was really good, he'd let us all participate in the celestial society on equal footing from the very beginning, and let us work through things and learn from our mistakes in real life as a community. Sort of like what we do here on earth. Frankly, the celestial kingdom sounds a bit too much like Mensa for my taste.

This is one of the many conundrums created by the Mormon Neo-orthodox view of God. Formerly, one might argue that the Mormon God is an important participant in a process he hasn't originated, manipulated, or controlled. But once one stresses the "Omni" qualities of the Mormon Deity, then things like the probationary state do begin to look cruel. I mean, an "Omni" God is both the source of everything and responsible for the form it takes. If something is less than ideal, then either he screwed up, or he is a right bastard.

[_Gadianton]

I agree with you CK. Consider for a moment that the apologists' twist on the idea of a "probationary state" is true. Then, you have this person suffering in a concentration camp and making unfathomable sacrafices to protect her own which becomes an "A" on God's little test. Likewise, you have some Mopologist who was born in a middleclass to privilaged family with high intelligence and all the chances for learning in the world. This person loses a couple of debates on his mission so becomes very hurt and angry. He then sets out on a personal quest of revenge, to prove the church is true and to make all those who offended him look bad. During the conflict, things get heated, and Sunstone intellectuals and EVs become a continuing thorn in the apologist's side. This life drama becomes his test, his opponents become "anti-Mormons" and equally reprehensible to the anti-Semites who tortured the woman. The apologist, remaining faithful during his trials, also gets an "A" on God's little test and rewarded a crown of glory for persevering through a challenge equal in difficulty to the plight of the woman. And the folks at Sunstone fail equally to those who tortured the woman.

[_Maxrep]

Two thirds of the host of heaven, as legend states, opted to participate in the "Probationary State". Commonly taught to many youth of our day, was the principle that this life afforded us the agency to choose the restored gospel. At some point, most likely in this life, the gospel would be presented, and we had the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. As the decades have come and gone, this teaching has been diluted noticeably. We still adhere to the idea of this life being a probationary state, but have backed away from the fervent message that mankind will reject or accept the restored gospel here in mortality, and have shifted that acceptance time table to the afterlife. The earlier message of introducing all of mankind to the restored gospel for acceptance, certainly had momentum during the years the church enjoyed growth.



Today, we look at world populations and figure that Mormonism claims just a fraction of a percent of those working out their probation. In truth though, even that miniscule portion is a gross exaggeration. The reality is that todays membership of active participants, who hold real callings and pay full tithes, have inherited their membership from their parents at the age of 8. Among the two thirds host of heaven that opted for this probationary state in the pre earth life, what percent embrace the restored gospel as a real choice that arises from adult maturity? My guess is that educated and capable adults who can function in society in a healthy manner, will not ever choose the restored gospel. If we did assign a numerical value, it would be exponentially smaller than that fraction of a percent that represents membership of birth. The church cannot beg, borrow, or buy quality members.



During those decades where the church enjoyed some growth, the purpose of the restored gospel was also expanded. A common theme was that the light of Christ brought about by the restoration, ushered in the industrial age as well as the advent of the personal computer, as we humans basked in the intelligence radiating from Gods true church, intact and authoritative. Though this was a heart warming idea at the time, we now recognize the wishful thinking at play here. However you look at this probationry state, for all real intents, the existence of the church today has absolutely nothing to do with the landscape of humanity. The church has positioned itself as a self proclaimed bottleneck which all of mankind must pass through, yet it is effectively invisible.

[_Droopy]

Congratulations! This board continues to live up to its reputation as a vortex of the most extraordinary intellectual vacuity, philosophical shoddiness, and frontal lobe numbing ignorance of LDS doctrine and its implications. (Neo-orthodoxy? Oh please. The critics have already concocted the self serving fantasy of the "chapel Mormon". Do we really need a return to the old Signature Books hobby horse of "neo-orthodoxy", a phenomena that, like the chapel/internet Mormon dichotomy, has the unhappy property for its opponents of not existing?).

I find the philosophical level of the discussion here relative to the concept of the probationary state to be grossly and gratingly low. But, that's the environment we're in isn't it?

[_JohnStuartMill]

Signed,

Droopy
Ph.D., Comparative Philosophy, Columbia University

[_Doctor Scratch]

Signed,

Droopy
Ph.D., Comparative Philosophy, Columbia University

Droopy doesn't have a degree.

Congratulations! This board continues to live up to its reputation as a vortex of the most extraordinary intellectual vacuity, philosophical shoddiness, and frontal lobe numbing ignorance of LDS doctrine and its implications.

This just proves that Droopy doesn't understand LDS doctrine. He doesn't understand the very basic, fundamental teaching about Earth being a sort of "test."

[_Kishkumen]

This just proves that Droopy doesn't understand LDS doctrine. He doesn't understand the very basic, fundamental teaching about Earth being a sort of "test."

When most morons like Drippy get confused, they sit back, say "duh," and let a little dollop of drool escape their parted lips. Drippy picks up a thesaurus and starts typing, all the while not being the least bit aware of his motivations. It calms the feelings of panic.

[_Yoda]

Congratulations! This board continues to live up to its reputation as a vortex of the most extraordinary intellectual vacuity, philosophical shoddiness, and frontal lobe numbing ignorance of LDS doctrine and its implications. (Neo-orthodoxy? Oh please. The critics have already concocted the self serving fantasy of the "chapel Mormon". Do we really need a return to the old Signature Books hobby horse of "neo-orthodoxy", a phenomena that, like the chapel/internet Mormon dichotomy, has the unhappy property for its opponents of not existing?).

I find the philosophical level of the discussion here relative to the concept of the probationary state to be grossly and gratingly low. But, that's the environment we're in isn't it?

Well, Droopy, if you feel this way, why not prove them wrong? Get involved in the conversation. Instead of simply throwing out insults about how stupid the OP is, why not take the time to actually address some of Chris' points?

Who knows? It might actually make for an interesting discussion instead of devolving into another of your "this board is stupid" diabtribes.