How Joseph could translate Reformed Egyptian to English?

[_solomarineris]

Without re-producing one word of it, either written or as a spoken language?
I am no linguist, I can understand & speak six languages (4 of them reasonably fluently).
I could never understand the process how Joseph could produce a word in English claiming
to be of Reformed Egyptian. It is simply impossible; If I explain the word "House" from Eskimo, Inuit,
French, Japanese, I absolutely have to produce a sound to you, "Casa","maison,"Haus" whatever....
Book of Mormon. Book of Abraham have absolutely no samples as such. How can any linguist test this baloney?
Fortunately Book of Abraham Papyri survived and we can see that it was an absurd translation, it is self evident.

That is why I don't waste any of my time to discuss veracity of Book of Abraham.
It hurts the credibility of accredited scholars who defend this junk.
I mean, I realize some of these guys making a living defending this stuff but it is not worth it.

[_Gazelam]

Charles Anthon was professor of classical studies at Columbia College (today’s Columbia University) for forty-seven years-1820-1867. In earlier years he at­tended Columbia as a student and is described as probably the most brilliant scholar ever to attend Columbia College.

The Dictionary of American Biography describes Professor Anthon as a prolific writer. During a period of thirty years he produced at least one volume annually. ''Each of his text books passed through several editions, and for thirty years his influence upon the study of the classics in the United States was probably greater than that of any other man.'(Vol. 1, p. 314) Edgar Allen Poe wrote of Anthon: "If not absolutely the best, he is at least generally considered the best classicist in America ..." (The Literati, New York, 1859, pp. 45-47). Harper's Weekly, Aug. 17, 1867, said Professor Anthon was "more widely known in Europe than any other American commentator on classical authors."

Dr. Anthon was a bachelor and lived in a wing of Columbia College. It is believed that it was there, in his study, that Martin Harris interviewed him.

It is rather amazing how literally these last four verses were fulfilled. Here is what Martin Harris says happened:



I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian.

I then showed him those which were not translated, and he said that they were true characters. He gave me a certificate certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated­ was also correct.

I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him. He then said to me, 'Let me see that certificate.' I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, then he took it and tore it to pieces saying that there was no such thing as ministering angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him HE WOULD TRANSLATE THEM. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, 'I cannot read a sealed book.'

I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation. (History of the Church Vol. I, p. 20)



According to Isaiah and Nephi the Lord would leave this sacred record in the custody of the man who would be uneducated and unskilled. They knew he would protest, saying, "I am not learned.”

To gain some idea of the truly "unlearned" status of Joseph Smith at the age of 23, we quote these words from his wife, Emma Hale Smith, who testified in later years concerning the inability of Joseph Smith to have written the Book of Mormon or even a simple treatise. She said,



"Joseph Smith [as a young man] . . . could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter, let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon, and though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, was present during the translation of the plates, and had cognizance of things as they transpired, it is marvelous to me—a marvel and a wonder—as much as to anyone else." Then she continued: "My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity; I have not the slightest doubt of it. When acting as his scribe, your father [she was being interrogated by her son] would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or interruptions he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was an unusual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this, and FOR ONE SO IGNORANT AND UNLEARNED AS HE WAS, IT WAS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE." (Quoted from Preston Nibley's The Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, pp. 28-29)

[_Sethbag]

And when Anthon learned that Martin Harris was going around saying he'd supported the characters being authentic, he set the record straight, that in fact he'd thought it was all a load of BS.

Tell me this, Gazelam. We know that Anthon was a very highly trained classicist. Based on what particular training in the classics do you suppose anyone could say that the characters in the image you linked to were in fact genuine? What language did Anthon know whose characters these match up with? What linguistic trove of wisdom would lead any scholar to pronounce these bogus characters as genuine?

I'd really love to know. Apparently, Anthon knew something that no classical scholar has known since, which is how in the world these characters are supposed to be apparently genuine.

At the very least, please point us in the direction of any modern, non-Mormon scholar who thinks these characters are legit: who knows, maybe Anthon couldn't read a sealed book, but some other modern scholar can?

[_Danna]

Since Anthon could not translate Egyptian, there is no possible way he could comment on the veracity of the translation, and he had never seen earlier Egyptian translations. So if Harris is telling the truth, Anthon was pulling his leg about the translation anyway.

Since it is highly unlikely that Anthon would provide documentary evidence to Harris claiming to do something any classical scholar would know was impossible at the time, Anthons disavowals are probably closer to the truth.

I have had a wee go at the caractors myself, and I think the Jupiter talisman gives a few clues as to 'translation'...

[_DarkHelmet]

Anthon denied Martin Harris's story. We have to decide who to believe. Anthon, or Martin Harris? Hmm, that's a tough one.

[_John Larsen]

And when Anthon learned that Martin Harris was going around saying he'd supported the characters being authentic, he set the record straight, that in fact he'd thought it was all a load of b***s***.

Tell me this, Gazelam. We know that Anthon was a very highly trained classicist. Based on what particular training in the classics do you suppose anyone could say that the characters in the image you linked to were in fact genuine? What language did Anthon know whose characters these match up with? What linguistic trove of wisdom would lead any scholar to pronounce these bogus characters as genuine?

I'd really love to know. Apparently, Anthon knew something that no classical scholar has known since, which is how in the world these characters are supposed to be apparently genuine.

At the very least, please point us in the direction of any modern, non-Mormon scholar who thinks these characters are legit: who knows, maybe Anthon couldn't read a sealed book, but some other modern scholar can?

You are absolutely right. Even if Anthon had said exactly what he said, which is doubtful in the extreme, his statement is absurd. There is no indication, nor even a way for him to be able to translate Egyptian let alone Reformed Egyptian--which the appologists assure us has not been discovered. How could Anthon confirm the reliability of an unknown language. They should be embarrassed this thing even exists.

[_Phaedrus Ut]

Gaz,

Why don't you play Martin Harris yourself and take the "Caractors" document to an expert in ancient languages and see what they think.

You can also include these characters:

Written by Fredrick G Williams who was Joseph's scribe from 1833 to 1837. The note was found on a paper that had been separated into four sections by a line drawing. The top section contained a copy of the revelation on the parchment of John now in D&C 7. The second section has "Questions in English and answers in Hebrew", and the third section had writings titled "Characters on the Book of Mormon" and "The interpretation of Languages." Two characters appear under each heading. The fourth section concerns Lehi's landing in chile. (Selected collections 1:19, Revelations Collections, Box 1, Folder 5. Original: LDS Church Archives MS 4583. )


Phaedrus

[_solomarineris]

"Joseph Smith [as a young man] . . . could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter, let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon,

Gaz,
Do you remember Mark Hoffmann? How, above all duped his wife in their own home, creating brilliant fake documents?
At least then people had a good reason to buy Hoffmann's stuff because it looked so genuine.

However this "Charactors" Joseph Smith invented look stupid, has the appearance of a child's invention.
You have 99.9% evidence, this whole gig was created by an "Amateur".

[_karl61]

I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian.

I then showed him those which were not translated, and he said that they were true characters. He gave me a certificate certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated­ was also correct.

I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him. He then said to me, 'Let me see that certificate.' I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, then he took it and tore it to pieces saying that there was no such thing as ministering angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him HE WOULD TRANSLATE THEM. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, 'I cannot read a sealed book.'

I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation. (History of the Church Vol. I, p. 20)









The way I understand it is that part of history of the church was written by Joseph Smith months after Harris left the Church. If investigators read that they would think that it was written by Harris but it was written by Joseph Smith. It's really immoral to publish that without a little footnote explaining the truth of the matter.

[_karl61]

also, it appears from the History of the Church that Professor Anton could read Reformed Egyptian as he said that translation of the characters was correct and this (I think) was before regular Egyptian could be translated.