Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

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_Doctor Scratch
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Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

In the wake of the recent threads on SHIELDS, I have received a flurry of messages from a number of vital "informants." A number of connections and parallels were drawn, and now, after everything has been said and done, I believe that the evidence will very strongly suggest that something was done to seriously tone down the nature of professional, BYU-linked apologetics. Whether this was an order from the Brethren, or a very strongly-worded letter from BYU administration, I cannot say, but the circumstantial historical evidence seems to be overwhelming in suggesting that the FARMS apologists were commanded to "cease and desist" with their aggressive polemics.

I realize that this may be a shocking charge. Please bear with me as I lay out the evidence.

In the mid-1990s, SHIELDS was the up-and-coming online Mopologetic organization. As I explored (and as the evidence showed), SHIELDS was formed on the basis of revenge---they even admitted, quite freely, that their primary interest was in "polemics," which, for the uninformed, is a very aggressive form of rhetorical confrontation.

From roughly 1995-2000, SHIELDS enjoyed a sort of Halcyon era, with unethically obtained correspondence pouring in from DCP, Lou Midgley, Bill Hamblin, and other BYU apologists. This, coupled with the Nauvoo and SLC conferences, helped to bolster SHIELDS status. On the other hand, a lot of these activities were extraordinarily ugly. The apologists stooped to some pretty extraordinary lows, and what's worse, all of this was on public display. In a couple of postings to the SHIELDS guest book, some apparent members, including one Lehi Cranston, complained quite vigorously about the tactics the apologists were employing:

Lehi Cranston wrote:aturday 02/21/2004 2:22:08am
Name: Lehi Cranston
E-Mail: lhcranston@sbcglobal.net
Homepage Title:
Homepage URL:
Referred By: Just Surfed In
Your Location: Chico, California
Comments: You people at "SHIELDS" should be absolutely ashamed of your actions.

I've read some of your "reviews" and some of your "correspondence" with critics of the Church. I am a life-long member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I am absolutely embarassed that your brand of dialog about the Church is published on the internet, let alone in print. Your entire defense of my faith appears to consist largely of making childish personal attacks and snide comments (see in particular remarks by Daniel Peterson and Louis Midgely....who ARE these misguided brethern?) about critics of the Church.

Here's a hint: be bigger than those who criticize you, and maybe someone will take you more seriously than they will the critic. Be bigger, kinder, and more in control of the facts and your own argument than those who criticize you, and maybe you'll give the Church a good name. As it is, your tactics are an embarassment to the Church.

Please stop what you are doing. You will drive more people from the Church of Jesus Christ than you will ever help. Thank you.


But, complaints such as Cranston's were brushed aside. In a post here on MDB, Prof. Peterson even suggested that Lehi Cranston was a completely bogus alias, concocted solely for the purpose of "bashing" the apologists. And thus, the hardcore, aggressive polemics carried on. In fact, to get a sense of what SHIELDS was up to during this time period, I suggest visiting this link:

http://www.shields-research.org/Authors/AUTHORS.html

Of special interest are the sections from the BYU authors, especially DCP, Hamblin, Tvedtnes, and Midgley, all of whom rather gleefully posted their correspondences with Church critics. When looking through the correspondence, be sure to pay close attention to the dates. You'll notice that virtually all of them took place prior to 1999-2000. A brief sampling:

DCP & James White: 1998
DCP & Adam Scott: 1998
DCP & Mike Burns: 1999
Lou Midgley's visit to and assault on the Tanners: 1997
Midgley's inquiries into James White's degree: 1998
Hamblin's correspondence with James White: 1998 (and compare this with his later, much more formal engagement with White in 2004. I think you'll notice that the latter interaction is much, much calmer.)

Thus, what we can observe is that some of the very worst, absolutely most aggressive and hostile rhetoric ever produced by the BYU apologists was collected and archives on SHIELDS during a relatively short period between 1997-1999.

What else was happening in Mopologetics during this time? As one of my informants usefully pointed out, DCP published his now-infamous "In the Land of the Lotus Eaters" in FARMS Review in 1998:

http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=1&id=275

Here is what appears to be a crucial excerpt:

DCP wrote:Some of us—not FARMS officially, I hasten to add—are considering the establishment of an award for "America's Funniest Anti-Mormons," although we certainly welcome international contributions, as well. (If there are enough submissions, perhaps we can open up a new category, like the annual "Foreign Film" Oscar at the Academy Awards.) We have settled on at least two prizes, to be known respectively as the "Korihor" and either the "Philastus" or the "Hurlbut." The latter titles come from the name of one of the very earliest anti-Mormons, "Doctor Philastus Hurlbut" who, in an eerily prescient move that has since been emulated by several countercult luminaries, carried the name of "Doctor" without ever earning a degree.


What are these "Korihor" and "Hurlbut" awards he's referring to? See here:

http://www.shields-research.org/Critics ... awards.htm

Perhaps it seems odd to us now to imaging that FARMS and SHIELDS were once such close bosom buddies, but....well...there you have it. DCP would have been serving at the Chair of FARMS during the period, and thus, his linking of FARMS and SHIELDS in this issue of the Review seems especially striking, as if he was announcing to all interested parties that this was the direction in which he hoped to steer FARMS, and, arguably, apologetics writ-large. (Recall also that this was the same editorial in which DCP gave a "shout out" to Gary Novak's astonishingly hostile "Worst of the anti-Mormon Web.") But, this was not meant to be.

Things are always clearer in retrospect, as the old saying goes. We know that SHIELDS did not prosper, and that it was, in effect, replaced by the far tamer and better-organized FAIR (which, interestingly enough, was established in....1997). But, in 1998, it seemed clear that the Chair of FARMS---the de facto leader of Mopologetics---was poised to anoint SHIELDS with the title of "Most Important Website in Online Mopologetics," hence his gleeful reference to it in the pages of the FARMS Review.

So what happened? It has been suggested elsewhere that the BYU apologists (i.e., those apologists representing FARMS) opted to side with FAIR because the lack of Ph.D.s among the operators of SHIELDS. Indeed, SHIELDS does seem to be a kind of sad repository for failed Ph.D.s, but is FAIR really all that much better? Are there loads of doctorate-holding apologists on the board of FAIR? Was the shift from SHIELDS to FAIR really a function of number of degrees? Today, FAIR is clearly the better organized and better funded of the two Mopologetic organizations, but did it really have to be that way?

Or, instead, were the BYU apologists ordered to cease their hostile antics? Bear in mind that another series of momentous events was taking place parallel to the nastiness on SHIELDS. Some here will recall my thread entitled, "Building the FARMS Ziggurat":

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8820&hilit=farms+ziggurat

In that thread, I laid out the rather mysterious process by which FARMS was formally incorporated into BYU. If you read over the thread, you'll notice that this process coincided exactly with the flurry of hostile polemics on SHIELDS. Also, in an interview with Peggy Fletcher Stack, DCP voiced his concern that:

DCP wrote:``FARMS has often had a polemical edge and we are curious to see how or whether that will be accommodated,'' he said. ``The minute I write something offensive, we'll see if I get a call.''


He also said that the FARMS Review had been mentioned in some kind of worrisome "quip." One cannot help but wonder: Was SHIELDS mentioned, too? Finally, we need to remember that DCP felt that his writing and research had taken a major-league "hit" during the whole FARMS-joining-BYU process (which was just wrapping up in 1999):

I didn't mind a bit that I was given some extra compensation for the hours and hours and hours that I spent working on the merger agreement for FARMS with BYU, which came on top of my editing and teaching duties and which almost destroyed my personal research and writing for several years.


Following this incorporation, I believe that we can observe a noticeable "tapering off" of FARMS apologists' hostility and polemics. I do not believe that it is any coincidence that DCP & Co. have "mellowed" since the incorporation. Bear in mind that the flurry of activity on ZLMB began around 2001. Does anyone recall DCP---or any of the other key FARMS apologists---acting anywhere near as aggressively as he clearly does in his SHIELDS exchanges? Remember, too, that Profs. P. and Hamblin both found it necessary to use pseudonyms (i.e., "Logic Chopper," "Free Thinker," MorgbotX," "Christodoulos," etc.) over the course of their careers on Z. And, as we all know, it was around mid-decade that the apologists fled to the safe confines of FAIR. By this time, of course, SHIELDS had become something of a dim memory.

Again I have to ask: What happened? Why does there seem to have been a tapering off of hostility following the incorporation of FARMS into BYU? Lest people still remain unconvinced that such a "tapering off" actually occurred, here are some other things to bear in mind:

---DCP published Offenders for a Word prior to the merger (1998, If I recall correctly)
---Bill Hamblin's "Metcalfe is Butthead" occurred prior to to the merger
---Lou Midgley's assault on S. Tanner occurred prior to the merger
---Most of DCP's most openly hostile editorials: prior to the merger
---The battle between FARMS and Signature Books: prior to the merger
---Gary Novak was a fairly regular FROB contributor until 2000, with 5 articles published. After that: only one, and it was co-authored with L. Midgley.

In the final analysis, I believe the evidence is overwhelming that the BYU apologists were ordered to clean up their act. Scarcely anywhere in any of their post-merger writings can one find the open hostility and nakedly bellicose polemics that one finds in their SHIELDS stuff. (One exception: Bill Hamblin's RfM tirade, which happened in 2003. He may have hoped that it would have disappeared into the ether, along with the bulk of RfM's posts.) While there have undeniably been moments of blunt anger and hostility among the BYU apologists, I think, too, that we can detect a lessening of their swagger. Rather than openly testosterone-fueled polemics, they exhibit a certain anxiety and anxiousness over their apologetic writings, as if they fear punishment from the powers-that-be (think, e.g., of J. Gee's threats to sue anyone who questioned his Book of Abraham work; this was interpreted as hubris on his part, but couldn't it just as equally be interpreted as a sign of fear among LDS apologists?).

In the end, I am left wondering if there are any alternative explanations for this "caesura" in Mopologetic aggression (at least among the "top guns" of BYU's apologetic cadre). It's possible that they came to a kind of personal consensus that they would "cease and desist," but this seems unlikely given their relish at fighting with critics, and also the fact that they would have left their SHIELDS pals flapping in the breeze. We also need to remember that the BYU Mopologists, as a group, tend to be very proud of their accomplishments, and that they tend not to kowtow to anyone. So, to wield Occam's Razor, I think we have to conclude that they were told to "tone it down." Somebody, somewhere along the Chair of Command, seems to have issued an order some time around the year 2000.

DCP or one of the other apologists can turn up to try and clarify, but to me the evidence speaks for itself.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Inconceivable
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Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Inconceivable »

Perhaps this did some good as well:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8888

Still worth resurrecting occasionally to remind the brethren we know who this guy is too.

I imagine he got a phone call, and he needed one too. It's beyond me how he yet remains a bishop.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Inconceivable wrote:Perhaps this did some good as well:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8888

Still worth resurrecting occasionally to remind the brethren we know who this guy is too.

I imagine he got a phone call, and he needed one too. It's beyond me how he yet remains a bishop.


Hi there, Inc. I suppose I should clarify what I meant. In no way do I mean to suggest that DCP is some kind of a "puppet" for the Brethren, or anything like that. Instead, I get the sense that someone in either BYU administration, or among the General Authorities, told the BYU apologists that they needed to knock off their SHIELDS-style antics. The bottom line here is that *some* thing happened. Something happened that caused these guys to stop assisting SHIELDS. Given the fact that all of this coincided with the incorporation of FARMS into BYU, I think that the best explanation is that they were told to curtail their hostile polemics.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Ray A

Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Ray A »

Doctor Scratch wrote: Bear in mind that the flurry of activity on ZLMB began around 2001. Does anyone recall DCP---or any of the other key FARMS apologists---acting anywhere near as aggressively as he clearly does in his SHIELDS exchanges? Remember, too, that Profs. P. and Hamblin both found it necessary to use pseudonyms (i.e., "Logic Chopper," "Free Thinker," MorgbotX," "Christodoulos," etc.) over the course of their careers on Z. And, as we all know, it was around mid-decade that the apologists fled to the safe confines of FAIR. By this time, of course, SHIELDS had become something of a dim memory.


I don't believe DCP was aggressive on Z. If anything I was the aggressive one, and threw the bait. I thought DCP was tame, in comparison to what I'd seen before, and in the SHIELDS exchanges. In spite of our disagreement on Z., I don't ever recall him offering a below the belt cheap shot. Cynical wit, yes, and even when occasionally directed at me I found it funny. I rather grew to like "Freethinker" afterwards. Just think of the direct opposite of someone like Droopy.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Ray A wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote: Bear in mind that the flurry of activity on ZLMB began around 2001. Does anyone recall DCP---or any of the other key FARMS apologists---acting anywhere near as aggressively as he clearly does in his SHIELDS exchanges? Remember, too, that Profs. P. and Hamblin both found it necessary to use pseudonyms (i.e., "Logic Chopper," "Free Thinker," MorgbotX," "Christodoulos," etc.) over the course of their careers on Z. And, as we all know, it was around mid-decade that the apologists fled to the safe confines of FAIR. By this time, of course, SHIELDS had become something of a dim memory.


I don't believe DCP was aggressive on Z. If anything I was the aggressive one, and threw the bait. I thought DCP was tame, in comparison to what I'd seen before, and in the SHIELDS exchanges. In spite of our disagreement on Z., I don't ever recall him offering a below the belt cheap shot. Cynical wit, yes, and even when occasionally directed at me I found it funny. I rather grew to like "Freethinker" afterwards. Just think of the direct opposite of someone like Droopy.


Ray---

Yes, I agree that there seemed to definitely be a lessening of aggression from DCP & et al. on Z.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Ray A

Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Ray A »

I'm not sure about your thesis, Doctor, but something did get me thinking:

Dan Peterson: humble apologetics for people on the edge.

Excerpts:


Dan Peterson, borrowing the title of a book by John Gordon Stackhouse, spoke on "Humble Apologetics."

"And basically I am offering myself as the model of that," Peterson said, eliciting laughter from the crowd of about 300 people.

Peterson proposed that apologists must be modest in what they say and gentle in the way they say it. "This is going to seem odd coming from me," he said, "but I mean it."

But still, Peterson worries about the tone of discussions on Internet message boards. They are like boxing rings and are dominated too much by men. "There's a lot of, dare I say, a lot of testosterone involved with this kind of apologetics," he said.

"To my shame I keep getting sucked in (to these Internet discussions)," he said to laughter, "like a drunk passing the tavern door, he swears it off, but he keeps on coming in."

On his mission, Peterson developed a reputation as a Jehovah's Witness basher. When a few missionaries had an appointment with one of the leading Jehovah's Witnesses in Switzerland, they called Peterson to help out.

"We just mopped the floor with this guy," he said. "I think it was humiliating. I was embarrassed. He wasn't very good. We just annihilated him. But the longer the evening went on, the worse I felt. I did not enjoy this. He didn't join the church. It didn't do any good. We just humiliated the guy."


I don't know if there was any "ordering", but perhaps subtle pressure from within (maybe things like revisiting England's critical comments), and personal realisations?
_Ray A

Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Ray A »

Further thoughts from the Mormon Stories Podcast Archive.

Excerpt:

Last week I was counseling a friend who had left the LDS church. As he recounted to me his story, it was interesting to note that apologetics (FAIR and FARMS in particular) were a precursor to his leaving the church–and a strong source for his abiding anger/resentment, and resistance to returning.

I probably get at least 2-3 emails a week from folks who have left the church–and I’m surprised at how many of these people not only delved into apologetics before they left–but also look back upon their experience w/ apologetics in almost disgust. Is it possible that the general approach/effect of arch-apologists like Dan Peterson and Louis Midgley–is actually NEGATIVE with respect to helping people retain their faith in the LDS Church? I am sure that they get short-term emails expressing gratitude for what they’ve done–so I’m speaking more in the medium-long term.

Recent postings by Lou Midgley and Dan Peterson in the bloggernacle are benign examples of what I mean. If you want the full banana….check out the FAIR Message Boards. Blech. Yuck. I almost feel dirty linking to that post.
_Gadianton
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Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Gadianton »

I think Doctor Scratch presents a very convincing case that the Brethren ordered the apologists to abandon the "small shop" hack polemics. Obviously, they haven't been impressive in their efforts, but I agree with Scratch that the early SHIELDS material is much stronger than FARMS material even though there is some carry over. Strangely, it seems as if some of that anger towards critics ended up being directed toward their own fellow Mormons.

I do have to admire SHIELDS in one sense. They do what they love to do. They are true to themselves. So many of the FAIR apologists and a number of the FARMS apologists are seasoned mudslingers, this is what makes them happy. They try in a way, they want to be part of -- or at least their conscience tells them they should be part of -- the bigger picture, they want to believe the Book of Mormon is an important scholarly subject, but they just can't take the high road. The serious apologetic work always breaks down, always betrays the love for the put-down.

So while in one sense, we might ridicule SHIELDS and look up to FARMS and FAIR for moving beyond the realm of day-and-night cheap shots to cheap shots on weekends only, we can admire the self-honesty of SHIELDS. And we can recognize that they are doing exactly what they want to do and no one will tell them otherwise.

I had a roomate at BYU once who was "pre med" He was also an excellent musician. He was good enough he could probably have slid by in a music career. His music teacher told him one day, "forget medical school, you might be poor as a musician, but you'll be doing what you love". Maybe some of the senior apologists would have been more content in life had they stayed "poor" and continued with SHIELDS as fulltime, angry polemicists? Maybe that's why one went back?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I don't know if there was any "ordering", but perhaps subtle pressure from within (maybe things like revisiting England's critical comments), and personal realisations?


Oh, I definitely think that there has been some "subtle pressure from within." But consider a few facts, Ray:

---The "stepping down" was not limited just to DCP. Midgley, Hamblin, Tvedtnes, and even the SHIELDS originators Barker, Jacobs, and Humbert seriously scaled back their harshness.
---DCP himself admitted that there was some "quip" concerning FROB's harshness, and when pressed on this "quip," DCP refused to tell what it was.
---The "Hurlbut" and "Korihor" (later re-named "Nehor") awards were discontinued right in accordance with the timetable I've laid out.
---Whether intentional or not, DCP's claim that he "doesn't like it---e.g.:

DCP's Supposedly 'Humble' Mopologetics wrote:But the longer the evening went on, the worse I felt. I did not enjoy this. He didn't join the church. It didn't do any good. We just humiliated the guy.


---seems rather disingenuous. It is almost as if he possesses an uncontrollable need to (attempt to) humiliate Church critics (at least by his own explanation). Do you really think that he hates crossing swords with critics? Because I sure don't. Not on the basis of his behavior, anyhow. And, I think that he has shown a lot of anxiety over the criticism of his behavior. (Consider his over-the-top labels for me, etc.)

Here's something else to mull over:

http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=2&id=149

This, which is basically a pre-cursor to the "humble apologetics" piece (it says virtually the same thing, content-wise) was written in 1994. But take a look at this, from the piece I just linked to:

The negative work of criticism and, occasionally, of demolition, is something we approach with genuine reluctance.
(emphasis added)

???? "Demolition"? This is not the language of someone who is supposedly acting in "self-defense." I submit that DCP and the rest of the apologists relish this "embarrassment" or "demolition" of critics. (Just compare this editorial--which is very brief, and which seems very out of character for DCP---with his "In the Land of the Lotus Eaters," which is practically reeking with sarcasm and derision.) DCP may have realized at a certain point that it would be bad for the Church to engage in aggressive polemics, but he has personally had a hard time reigning in his impulses.

And, anyway, none of this really explains the odd "rift" that occurred around the year 2000. I don't think that "mere coincidence" or "personal choice" is enough to explain all the radical changes that took place. I think that there was some sort of "intervention" that took place.


In terms of your link to mormonstories.... I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I don't think there's any doubt that DCP has attempted to clean up his act. That much was evident in both the 1994 FARMS piece, and in the "humble apologetics" thing. But is this enough to explain everything that happened in the late 1990s? Again: consider how monumental it was that FARMS would receive official Church sanction by way of BYU. Consider how secretive the Brethren are, and how anathema controversy is to the Church....

I don't know, Ray. Yes, it's *plausible* that all of the BYU apologists simultaneously decided to ditch SHIELDS, calm down a bit, and ally themselves with FAIR... But don't you think it's far more logical and reasonable to assume that they were simply told to "cut it out"?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Were DCP and other BYU Apologists Ordered to "Tone it Down"?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:I think Doctor Scratch presents a very convincing case that the Brethren ordered the apologists to abandon the "small shop" hack polemics. Obviously, they haven't been impressive in their efforts, but I agree with Scratch that the early SHIELDS material is much stronger than FARMS material even though there is some carry over. Strangely, it seems as if some of that anger towards critics ended up being directed toward their own fellow Mormons.

I do have to admire SHIELDS in one sense. They do what they love to do. They are true to themselves. So many of the FAIR apologists and a number of the FARMS apologists are seasoned mudslingers, this is what makes them happy. They try in a way, they want to be part of -- or at least their conscience tells them they should be part of -- the bigger picture, they want to believe the Book of Mormon is an important scholarly subject, but they just can't take the high road. The serious apologetic work always breaks down, always betrays the love for the put-down.

So while in one sense, we might ridicule SHIELDS and look up to FARMS and FAIR for moving beyond the realm of day-and-night cheap shots to cheap shots on weekends only, we can admire the self-honesty of SHIELDS. And we can recognize that they are doing exactly what they want to do and no one will tell them otherwise.

I had a roomate at BYU once who was "pre med" He was also an excellent musician. He was good enough he could probably have slid by in a music career. His music teacher told him one day, "forget medical school, you might be poor as a musician, but you'll be doing what you love". Maybe some of the senior apologists would have been more content in life had they stayed "poor" and continued with SHIELDS as fulltime, angry polemicists? Maybe that's why one went back?


This is an excellent point. And recall, Dr. Robbers, that DCP expressed a great deal of skepticism regarding what would happen to the FARMS Review as it got sucked into the great, gaping bureaucratic maw of BYU. In his "Lotus Eaters" piece, you can sense a real affinity and affection for SHIELDS. I have never seen anything approaching that sort of fondness towards FAIR. It may be fair to say that SHIELDS represents the naked heart of Mopologetics.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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