DiscussMormonism.com

OK -- This is 2009 -- supposedly a great deal of research on
Joseph Smith, Jr. has been conducted in the last decade or so --
but to what end? Who are the recognized experts on his origins?
Larry Porter and a few others?

Who are the recognized experts on Smith's early years, before 1830?
What contributions to Mormon historical knowledge have they made?

Where can I go to locate and read a summary of what we know
about Joseph Smith, up through the founding of the Church?

Who are the experts? How can they be accessed today? Must we
attend all the MHA sessions and hope to score 5 minutes of alone
time with Richard L. Bushman? Is that how it's done, these days?

I have a couple of questions, and no idea about where to go for answers:

1. Dr. John Stafford said in 1904, that his next-door neighbor, Alvin Smith,
"went out West in search of wealth, but was unsuccessful and in a short
time returned." Where did Alvin go? How does Stafford's statement
correlate with Dan Vogel's discovering a missing period for Alvin at
Palmyra (before the Smiths moved in next door to the Staffords)?

Dr. John Stafford also said in 1904, "The people around town always
thought his mother had more to do with writing the Book of Mormon
than Joseph did. " What do modern students of Mormon history know
about local perceptions, in and around Palmyra, regarding Lucy Mack Smith?
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY ... htm#031604

2. William Hyde, an acquaintance of Joseph Smith, Sr., said in 1888:
"When translated the golden sheets would be of great value. Hidden treasures would be revealed
and everybody who contributed to the grist by way of money would become the possessor of immense
wealth. Being the first person to whom the secret was given of course it was only fair that I should be
the first to receive an offer. If I would donate a stipulated sum to the fund Smith, Sr., agreed to install
me as treasurer."
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL ... htm#101488
also:
"They [Smith family] had formed a society at that time -- not a religious society, however. He wanted me
to identify myself with the understanding and promise to make me treasurer, in that event. ...
it appeared to me that the elder Smith was desirous of great wealth, and during the gold-digging
excitement following the discovery of the mysterious plates, I was at times led to think it possible that
the elder Smith might have planned some deep scheme for making money; but when the religious
society called the "Chosen People" was formed, and he became active in proselyting and preaching
and baptizing, I was nonplussed..."
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/LD ... htm#111088

What was this secret organization of the Smiths -- "not a religious society" -- which
evolved into "the Chosen People?" --- What do modern historians say about the
Smiths attempts to influence their neighbors opinions, BEFORE the Book of Mormon
was "translated?"

There seems to be no place to go for answers -- am I missing something?

Uncle Dale

I would venture to say that it was "The Gold Bible Company."

Hi Uncle Dale,

I guess you missed the memo...

We are all counting on YOU to provide the answers!



~td~

I was thinking the same thing, Truth Dancer...

I'm 'still' wading through Dale's site.. I think it will take years...

Trevor wrote:I would venture to say that it was "The Gold Bible Company."

Well then -- was there such a thing as the "gold Bible company," which
operated as a small secret society, and was essentially not a religious group?

Was this the transition between money-digging and restoring the apostolic church?

Was there a period, during the late 1820s, when the Smith family was promoting
the publication of an "ancient record," which was not intended to "restore the gospel?"

Have LDS scholars ever admitted such a thing?

UD

Hi Dale,

Was wondering if you have ever communicated with Dr Bushman about Jos Smith and some of your studies and research?

Uncle Dale wrote:Well then -- was there such a thing as the "gold Bible company," which
operated as a small secret society, and was essentially not a religious group?

According to the testimony of Henry Harris of Manchester, NY before Justice Jonathan Lapham:

I, Henry Harris, do state that I became acquainted with, the family of Joseph Smith, Sen. about the year 1820, in the town of Manchester, N. York. They were a family that labored vary little--the chief they did, was to dig for money. Joseph Smith, Jr. the pretended Prophet, used to pretend to tell fortunes; he had a stone which he used to put in his hat, by means of which he professed to tell people's fortunes.

Joseph Smith, Jr. Martin Harris and others, used to meet together in private, a while before the gold plates were found, and were familiarly known by the name of the "Gold Bible Company." They were regarded by the community in which they lived, as a lying and indolent set of men and no confidence could be placed in them.

From the more controversial Deming:

He had most recently found some employment in this line of work and related tasks in Canadaigua, but, following the untimely death of his employer, young Cowdery lodged first with his brother and then with his cousins (the Joe Smith family of Manchester) and there became a sometime participant in the infamous "Gold Bible Company."

After Joseph Smith, Jr. had his dream about the angel, it was decided in private midnight consultations that the contrived appearance of real metallic plates would be of especial use to the Bible Company. Oliver was dispatched to the Sherman smithy with orders to fabricate a book of plates, held together with rings. Making use of various bits of scrap copper, Cowdery first attempted to forge the necessary production out behind the wagon shop. When that process proved too tedious for his taste, the coppersmith instead beat some worn-out engraving plates into serviceable "ancient sheets," nearly as thin as paper. According to onlooker Sherman, a half-dozen such plates were manufactured, but for what purpose he was never told.

From The Millennial Harbinger, Alexander Campbell, ed.:

That Smith and Martin Harris were in the habit of meeting together, often, just before the plates were said to be found, and were familiarly known in the neighborhood by the name of the 'Gold Bible Company;' and they were regarded by the community, generally, as a lying, indolent set of fellows, in whom no confidence could be placed; and Joseph Smith, Jr's, character for truth was so notoriously bad, that he could not and was not believed when under oath.

From William Smith on Mormonism (which places the origin of the name not on the group, but others insulting it):

But owing to the persecution of the religious world in consequence of Joseph's visions, his obtaining the plates and translating them, our neighbors conceived an antipathy against us, calling us all manner of names, such as "money-diggers," "angel-believers," "gold Bible company," "visionary men," [nice Book of Mormon allusion] etc.

From P. Pratt's rebuttal of Mormonism Unveiled:

Fortune telling, money digging, juggling, wicked cheat, liar, profane, intemperate, quarrelsome, not good character, gold Bible company, indolent, lying, notoriously bad, wife whipper, destitute of moral character, visionary, addicted to vicious habits; and add to this catalogue, the ridiculous stories that went the rounds of the religious papers concerning the "Angel Caught;" and walking on the water story; and the murder story; together with "Adultery," and the love tale of Mr. Smith's stealing his wife; and then the all things common; together with doing away with matrimony; and then the Treason against Government; the stirring up of the Slaves against their Masters; the instigating of the Indians to war and bloodshed; together with driving the inhabitants of Jackson County, Missouri, from their houses and lands, and the taking possession of them by force.

I don't think, however, that the "Gold Bible Company" could have been much of a "secret society," since they were "familiarly known by the name."

Uncle Dale wrote:Was this the transition between money-digging and restoring the apostolic church?

I think so, yes.

Uncle Dale wrote:Was there a period, during the late 1820s, when the Smith family was promoting the publication of an "ancient record," which was not intended to "restore the gospel?"

Again, I would say yes, and there is evidence to that effect, but I am not at liberty to share it. My friend Don Bradley located it in a collection at a famous university. I'll let him tell you. The one hint I will offer is the Book of Ether.

Uncle Dale wrote:Have LDS scholars ever admitted such a thing?

No, but I don't think they are particularly interested in an alternative narrative for the emergence of the Book of Mormon. I think there is ample evidence pointing to quite different alternatives.

TAK wrote:Hi Dale,

Was wondering if you have ever communicated with Dr Bushman about Jos Smith and some of your studies and research?

Only second-hand. A fellow once asked him about the value of the current Spalding-Rigdon
research efforts, which he reportedly downplayed, as not being worth even a reply.

Several LDS scholars have contacted me about my on-line archive of old newspaper
articles about the Mormons -- and through those communications I know that scholars
like Bushman occasionally access my internet offerings.

But my communication with the LDS historians has been sporadic and non-productive.
I've had a little better luck with CoC/RLDS scholars -- but it's still non-productive. Probably
my most useful contact on the topic has been Mike Marquardt.

It's frustrating to have to pick out a minor item, here and there, from brief mentions in
professional papers, etc. I had hoped that with the LDS releasing the "selected collections"
DVD series, and more information on the Joseph Smith papers, that some sort of synthesis
of historical resources and scholarly conclusions was about to emerge -- perhaps making
use of Dan Vogel's documents volumes and the growing number of internet digitized texts.

But no -- nothing seems to be happening.

I wish there existed a "Joseph Smith Clearinghouse" -- where we could go to consult at
least SOME of the modern research findings/opinions. But I suppose that's asking too much.

UD

Uncle Dale wrote:OK -- This is 2009 -- supposedly a great deal of research on Joseph Smith, Jr. has been conducted in the last decade or so -- but to what end? Who are the recognized experts on his origins?

I am an expert on the origins of Joseph Smith.

He originated from the uterus of Lucy Mack Smith.

Trevor wrote:

Uncle Dale wrote:Was there a period, during the late 1820s, when the Smith family was promoting the publication of an "ancient record," which was not intended to "restore the gospel?"

Again, I would say yes, and there is evidence to that effect, but I am not at liberty to share it. My friend Don Bradley located it in a collection at a famous university. I'll let him tell you. The one hint I will offer is the Book of Ether.

Uncle Dale wrote:Have LDS scholars ever admitted such a thing?

No, but I don't think they are particularly interested in an alternative narrative for the emergence of the Book of Mormon.
I think there is ample evidence pointing to quite different alternatives.

This is what I find so frustrating. "Alternative narratives" should interest everybody who does not have
some sort of iron-clad stake in maintaining the status quo. The "narrative" of what happened in the past
has several times been "updated" in ways that even the most reticent LDS scholar (read: R.L. Anderson)
has been compelled to accept. The search for new information and updated conclusions SHOULD interest
all people who are seeking the truth (or seeking as much of it as they can deal with).

I am very much interested in the period between c. 1825 and c. 1828 ---- the years when people
recalled hearing of "an ancient record," or "golden plates," or even a "golden Bible," but there was
no talk of baptisms, restorations, church organizations, etc.

Can we begin to pin down the history/geography/philosophy of that period?

Should I read the Book of Ether backwards, or something?

Uncle Dale