Are Mormons Becoming Like The Nephites?

[_Ray A]

As JSM said in another thread, “just for fun” (since I don’t believe any of this is historical, but may still have a “message”).

Note the pattern. Church is established “more fully”. “Saints” begin to “wax proud” because of easy living, riches and comfort (nothing like their persecuted handcart pioneers). They persecute those who differ in beliefs, who “did not believe according to their own will and pleasure”. And there were many contentions and strife, especially on message boards, and they began look down on those who did not believe as they did, insomuch that the example of the Church members made non-members more angry at them.


Alma 4:

4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma.
5 And it came to pass in the *seventh year of the reign of the judges there were about three thousand five hundred souls that united themselves to the church of God and were baptized. And thus ended the seventh year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi; and there was continual peace in all that time.
6 And it came to pass in the *eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.
7 Now this was the cause of much affliction to Alma, yea, and to many of the people whom Alma had consecrated to be teachers, and priests, and elders over the church; yea, many of them were sorely grieved for the wickedness which they saw had begun to be among their people.
8 For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began to be lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and to set their hearts upon riches and upon the vain things of the world, that they began to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure.
9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.
10 And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.
11 And it came to pass in the *commencement of the ninth year, Alma saw the wickedness of the church, and he saw also that the example of the church began to lead those who were unbelievers on from one piece of iniquity to another, thus bringing on the destruction of the people.

Are Mormons becoming like the fallen Nephites, “thus hindering the growth of the Church”?
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[_Daniel Peterson]

Note the pattern. Church is established “more fully”. “Saints” begin to “wax proud” because of easy living, riches and comfort (nothing like their persecuted handcart pioneers).

Very possibly.

They persecute those who differ in beliefs, who “did not believe according to their own will and pleasure”.

Not at all convinced of this.

And there were many contentions and strife, especially on message boards, and they began look down on those who did not believe as they did, insomuch that the example of the Church members made non-members more angry at them.

There's always room for self-criticism on this sort of thing. But it will seem odd and ironic if this becomes a major theme of criticism among critics who are, not infrequently, quite vicious and unfair in their treatment of Latter-day Saints.

Are Mormons becoming like the fallen Nephites, “thus hindering the growth of the Church”?

Possibly. Always worth reflection.

The Book of Mormon was given to us to afflict, as well as to comfort, to enable self-criticism as well as to offer hope.

[_DonBradley]

I believe Boyd K. Packer has, in the past, used passages from the Book of Mormon to show that the church can very quickly get "off course" and therefore in need of a "course correction." In fact, he argued that such a thing was the case. This was in the '90s in a widely distributed but unpublished talk to priesthood leaders (as I recall). Perhaps this will be familiar to some.

Such self-criticism on a scriptural model would no doubt be good for the church. Incessant triumphalism probably is not.

Don

[_Ray A]

The following addition to the OP is brought to by The Great and Spacious Trailer Park:

Ezra Taft Benson, "Beware of Pride" (1989):

The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that the Book of Mormon is the “record of a fallen people.” (D&C 20:9.) Why did they fall? This is one of the major messages of the Book of Mormon. Mormon gives the answer in the closing chapters of the book in these words: “Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction.” (Moro. 8:27.) And then, lest we miss that momentous Book of Mormon message from that fallen people, the Lord warns us in the Doctrine and Covenants, “Beware of pride, lest ye become as the Nephites of old.” (D&C 38:39.)

Pride is a very misunderstood sin, and many are sinning in ignorance. (See Mosiah 3:11; 3 Ne. 6:18.) In the scriptures there is no such thing as righteous pride—it is always considered a sin. Therefore, no matter how the world uses the term, we must understand how God uses the term so we can understand the language of holy writ and profit thereby. (See 2 Ne. 4:15; Mosiah 1:3–7; Alma 5:61.)
Most of us think of pride as self-centeredness, conceit, boastfulness, arrogance, or haughtiness. All of these are elements of the sin, but the heart, or core, is still missing.
The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means “hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition.” It is the power by which Satan wishes to reign over us.

The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others. In the words of C. S. Lewis: “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. … It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.” (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1952, pp. 109–10.)

The scriptures tell us that “only by pride cometh contention.” (Prov. 13:10; see also Prov. 28:25.)
Think of what pride has cost us in the past and what it is now costing us in our own lives, our families, and the Church.

[_Ray A]

Another memo, brought to you courtesy of "Wheat":

As far as Heber C. Kimball's proposed solution to pressing social problems _ sounds good to me. Hang a few gays, prostitutes, child molesters, defrauders, and the like in the public square, and before too long you'll have produced a much more hospitable environment for making and raising families.

Start with the apostates ... MDB, Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:37 pm

[_Ray A]

There's always room for self-criticism on this sort of thing. But it will seem odd and ironic if this becomes a major theme of criticism among critics who are, not infrequently, quite vicious and unfair in their treatment of Latter-day Saints.

We certainly have seen that. I have quite often spoken out about it (indulging in it has probably been irrational on my part). I have no more control over what critics say, than you have control over what William Schryver says. Or Droopy. Or selek. I'm not blaming you. And perhaps contrary to many here, I think you're one of the more reasonable voices in online Mormonism today, though we do disagree on some major points. Since I understand your worldview, I almost expect you to write what you do. I certainly can't fault you for being "vicious" on message boards. Though I'm sure Scratch will disagree.

[_Uncle Dale]

...

Are Mormons becoming like the fallen Nephites, “thus hindering the growth of the Church”?
...

If I understand official Mormon doctrine correctly, such a thing cannot happen.

In the seventh and final dispensation of the gospel, the living prophet cannot
lead the Saints astray and the priesthood cannot be taken from the earth.

Since the living prophet is not saying Mormons are becoming more and more
like Nephite apostates, they are not.

Then again, from my "outsider" perspective, the LDS First Presidency can indeed
lead their followers astray (example: Far West, July 4, 1838) -- and whatever
sort of true priesthood exists among the Mormon can indeed dwindle in unbelief.

See what happens to one us when he starts down the slippery slope, of rejecting
gospel dispensationalism?

Uncle Dale

[_Inconceivable]

...

Are Mormons becoming like the fallen Nephites, “thus hindering the growth of the Church”?
...

If I understand official Mormon doctrine correctly, such a thing cannot happen.

In the seventh and final dispensation of the gospel, the living prophet cannot
lead the Saints astray and the priesthood cannot be taken from the earth.

Since the living prophet is not saying Mormons are becoming more and more
like Nephite apostates, they are not.

Actually, Smith's God said it and Ezra Taft Benson reminded the members of the church they are yet under condemnation:

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father's kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 84:54 - 58)

[_Inconceivable]

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

Ensign » 1994 » March

“Another Testament of Jesus Christ"
Dallin H. Oaks

Cleansing the Inner Vessel
Ezra Taft Benson

Unless we read the Book of Mormon and give heed to its teachings, the Lord has stated in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants that the whole Church is under condemnation: “And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.” The Lord continues: “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written.”

Gospel Library > Magazines > Ensign > May 1986

My beloved brethren and sisters, for some years now I have been deeply concerned that we are not using the Book of Mormon as God intends.

As I participated in the Mexico City Temple dedication, I received the distinct impression that God is not pleased with our neglect of the Book of Mormon.

In the eighty-fourth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord decreed that the whole Church was under condemnation, even all the children of Zion, because of the way they treated the Book of Mormon. “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent,” said the Lord, “and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon.” (D&C 84:57).

Zion cannot fully arise and put on her beautiful garments if she is under this condemnation. (See D&C 82:14.)

Ensign » 1984 » November

A New Witness
Ezra Taft Benson

The church, as a whole, is yet under condemnation. The curse has never been lifted. Never.

Just like Steve, I liked his grandfather.

[_Uncle Dale]

>...
>Are Mormons becoming like the fallen Nephites, “thus hindering the growth of the Church”?
>...

If I understand official Mormon doctrine correctly, such a thing cannot happen.

In the seventh and final dispensation of the gospel, the living prophet cannot
lead the Saints astray and the priesthood cannot be taken from the earth.

Since the living prophet is not saying Mormons are becoming more and more
like Nephite apostates, they are not.

Actually, Smith's God said it and Ezra Taft Benson reminded the members...

Music to my ears -- the LDS Church was condemned, along with its dead, for never
having finished the Nauvoo Temple. Thus the prophet does lead the Mormons
astray and their priesthood has indeed been taken from the earth.

Sounds OK to me.

UD