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Why is it that LDS apologists make such a big deal about the witnesses to the gold plates but ignore completely that there were no witnesses to the First Vision? And ignore completely that there were no witnesses to Moroni's visits, even though Joseph slept in the same room as his brothers?

If witnesses are so important, wouldn't it be appropriate to wonder about the veracity of those instances where there were none?




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It wouldn't matter if there were witnesses to the first vision. We would still have Uncle Dale and the Daleites casting pearls of doubt whereever they went just as they do now with the 11 witnesses.

And let us not forget that Oliver was a witness to the restoration of the priesthood and some heavenly figures paid a visit then.

But it does seem to me that you are having problems with your position in regard to the LDS church. Your posts resemble a critic's post and not a member's post. Something tells me that you would love not to believe in the LDS church.

why me wrote:It wouldn't matter if there were witnesses to the first vision. We would still have Uncle Dale and the Daleites casting pearls of doubt whereever they went just as they do now with the 11 witnesses.

And let us not forget that Oliver was a witness to the restoration of the priesthood and some heavenly figures paid a visit then.

Which has no bearing on the First Vision or Moroni's visit. A red herring, why me. Why is there no outcry about the lack of witnesses to those two most important events of the restoration?

But it does seem to me that you are having problems with your position in regard to the LDS church. Your posts resemble a critic's post and not a member's post. Something tells me that you would love not to believe in the LDS church.

I'm not the subject of this thread, why me. Stay on target. Stay on target.

When did the First Vision really become an important aspect of the Mormon belief system? How many missionaries in the 19th century were wandering around talking about the First Vision? Maybe it isn't as central to the faith you might think. Just a thought.

Trevor wrote:When did the First Vision really become an important aspect of the Mormon belief system? How many missionaries in the 19th century were wandering around talking about the First Vision? Maybe it isn't as central to the faith you might think. Just a thought.

Well, it certainly is central to the Restoration now. And Daniel is one of people who makes a big deal about the witnesses now. So if witnesses are so important to the Restoration, why does no one mention or explain the lack of witnesses to the First Vision and Moroni's visits?

Harmony,

And ignore completely that there were no witnesses to Moroni's visits

wasn't Moroni standing there holding the plates for the witnesses?

Gazelam wrote:Harmony,

And ignore completely that there were no witnesses to Moroni's visits

wasn't Moroni standing there holding the plates for the witnesses?

I was thinking of the visits to Joseph's bedside, prior to Joseph obtaining the plates. Visits which, if I remember correctly, Joseph's brothers slept through... so, no witnesses.

why me wrote:It wouldn't matter if there were witnesses to the first vision. We would still have Uncle Dale and the Daleites casting pearls of doubt whereever they went just as they do now with the 11 witnesses.

Uncle Dale is the reason why there ought to be 3 witnesses - there is doubt and rightfully so - from your own books (you nut):

1 THIS is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 13:1)

3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 11:3)

15 And the testimony of three witnesses will I send forth of my word.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 5:15)

28 And now, behold, I give unto you, and also unto my servant Joseph, the keys of this gift, which shall bring to light this ministry; and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 6:28)

Well, at least the Book of Mormon is true, eh?

Uncle Dale, now don't you bother Why Me about his Book of Mormon anymore.

Then where are the witnesses to the First Vision and Moroni's visits?

harmony wrote:Then where are the witnesses to the First Vision and Moroni's visits?

Where were the witnesses to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments? Private messages do not get a witness. But for the Book of Mormon, we have a whopping eleven. Not bad.