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...and why is it so hard to describe by those who have claimed to have felt it?

And while we're at it, is it not even curious to LDS members that billions of others have claimed to have a spiritual witness that their "religion" is the only truth?

When I talk to TBMs, the most common response I get to this question is "well, if you have to ask about it, you haven't really had it..."

So really, maybe I never had it, because even when I believed I had "had it," I could at least describe what I felt!

I once had a home teacher tell me that God didn't answer my mother's prayers, because she is not LDS.

Perhaps that is how many of us get around the spiritual witness that other people have about the truth of their religion? By simply saying to ourselves over and over again... "God does not hear them. God does not hear them." Perhaps eventually we believe what we're saying.

harmony wrote:I once had a home teacher tell me that God didn't answer my mother's prayers, because she is not LDS.

Perhaps that is how many of us get around the spiritual witness that other people have about the truth of their religion? By simply saying to ourselves over and over again... "God does not hear them. God does not hear them." Perhaps eventually we believe what we're saying.

Without question, repetition of a view tends to persuade. Advertisers know this well. Advertising jingles which elicit a favorable response persuade people to buy the product. The sale is not in the actual product, it’s in the marketing of that product.

“Winston taste good like a cigarette should” That jingle hooked many thousands on that brand.

Religion has greater opaqueness. God claims obviate comparison and inquiry. Repetition over and over offers its own validation. It does not have to be accurate.

JAK

It's like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmey2WvWnw

BishopRic wrote:...and why is it so hard to describe by those who have claimed to have felt it?

Because most (if not all) of the time it is nothing but emotion.

But not all of it is a figment of our imagination:

I'll describe this spiritual witness by using non-mormon terms:

I was channeling thoughts and impressions I received from a source outside of myself (the Mormon church calls this receiving revelation from the Holy Ghost). There were a few times where the message was conveyed directly to me (personal revelation), but I had much more notable experiences when I was conveying a message through me to another person (ie. giving priesthood blessings). When channeling messages to another, they occasionally included actual physical healing).

This connection beyond myself (or channeling) is not prayer. It is revelation.

Most Mormon priesthood holders I've known didn't have this connection. Perhaps they feared some of the things they were told to say. Sometimes it took a leap of faith. For those that have experienced this channeling, you know what it is and you can spot a poser. I've known 1 patriarch that had it (my own), and two that hadn't a friggin clue. From Elders quorum presidents to Stake presidents. Most didn't get it - they wished, hoped, asked, begged or commanded without any connection at all - and nothing ever happened unless by accident.

Anyone who has ever said in a priesthood blessing, "..and any additional blessing God sees fit to bestow upon you.." is a poser. He has no connection (or maybe he is morally unworthy). : (

Though I always felt and conveyed an overriding invitation for recipients to accept this unseen entity's love or peace, the entity or source was not always consistent. And that is what troubled me as years passed and I saw some promises turn various directions - even to outright broken promises and lies.

This unseen source may even (at times) have an anxious concern for us. But it is not all powerful. It is certainly not perfect and is dead wrong on occasion.

Regardless of it's intent, after this life I intend to hunt it down (whatever it is) and kick it's ass. It has done more to destroy hope, ruin my life and dumb down the intellect of those I love and truly have an anxious concern for.

It's meddling should not be trusted. It's no different than the messages you might get from a fortune teller.

Buyer beware.

BishopRic wrote:...and why is it so hard to describe by those who have claimed to have felt it?

And while we're at it, is it not even curious to LDS members that billions of others have claimed to have a spiritual witness that their "religion" is the only truth?

When I talk to TBMs, the most common response I get to this question is "well, if you have to ask about it, you haven't really had it..."

So really, maybe I never had it, because even when I believed I had "had it," I could at least describe what I felt!

The "spirit" of the LDS is exactly the same "spirit" all the billions of the earth enjoy. It is the joy within them. I speak from many years of experience on this matter. When you make "joy/spirit" people unhappy and fill them with uncertainty they lash out at you as if you were the most evil and vile monster to have ever lived. Proving that the spirit they live by is of themselves.

Conversely to that is the unshakableness of one who has been truly visited of God and wrought upon and cleansed by partaking of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost which is the only true Spirit you can ever obtain. It cannot be touched by all the world's evil.

The spirit of revelation that LDS leadership uses to call people to do this and do that is simply how good they feel about it. Rediculous for revelation. Not subject to anything but their own caprice. But that is exactly what the living head of the Church will tell you. Fantastic!

If you fail to get the real thing you remain the same as all else. How about that?

Nightlion wrote:The spirit of revelation that LDS leadership uses to call people to do this and do that is simply how good they feel about it. ridiculous for revelation. Not subject to anything but their own caprice. But that is exactly what the living head of the Church will tell you. Fantastic!

If you fail to get the real thing you remain the same as all else. How about that?

I have no idea what you are attempting to convey here, NL. Care to proofread and then give it another wack?

by the way, do I really need to know what a Chevy has to do with revelation?

harmony wrote:I once had a home teacher tell me that God didn't answer my mother's prayers, because she is not LDS.

Perhaps that is how many of us get around the spiritual witness that other people have about the truth of their religion? By simply saying to ourselves over and over again... "God does not hear them. God does not hear them." Perhaps eventually we believe what we're saying.

Or do we use the "everybody has the 'spirit of Christ" line...the one that is good, but not quite the pinnacle of spirituality that a true "spiritual witness" is to Mormons?

Inconceivable wrote:Anyone who has ever said in a priesthood blessing, "..and any additional blessing God sees fit to bestow upon you.." is a poser. He has no connection (or maybe he is morally unworthy).

crap. I was a poser. I used to say that when I gave priesthood blessings. It's one of those things you pick up from listening to others give blessings, kind of like "bless this food that it may nourish and strengthen our bodies". It's part of the formula. Nothing you say really matters anyways because the priesthood is make-believe magic with no more healing power than new age crystals. Amen.

JAK wrote:Without question, repetition of a view tends to persuade. Advertisers know this well. Advertising jingles which elicit a favorable response persuade people to buy the product. The sale is not in the actual product, it’s in the marketing of that product.

“Winston taste good like a cigarette should” That jingle hooked many thousands on that brand.

Religion has greater opaqueness. God claims obviate comparison and inquiry. Repetition over and over offers its own validation. It does not have to be accurate.

JAK

So true. This repetition also seems to convince religious folks of the huge chasm between "good and evil, moral and immoral, right and wrong," which locks them into the paradigm that can't objectively fathom other ways to live.