Why does God think so little of women?

[_Morrissey]

I attended my daughter's graduation the other day, and just before they handed out the diplomas, the Head of School announced the various student awards: math award, science award, English award, etc. for outstanding students in the different subject areas, plus the overall outstanding student award. Of the roughly 10 or so awardees, 9 were girls.

I had used my Head and Shoulders earlier that morning, so my mind was free to wander. And I wondered as I wandered about this. First, a few decades ago, this probably would never, or rarely have been the case that girls dominated the academic awards. As a parent, I am very appreciative of the opportunities my daughters have had for education, sports, career, etc. that did not exist just 2 generations earlier. (As an aside, if conservative Christians, including Mormons, had their way, these opportunities would never have come about.)

Second, I reflected on the fact that even today the Mormon Church does not allow women to hold administrative positions in the Church (either 'management' or ministerial), or better said, administrative positions where they either hold authority over men or administer spiritually to men. (The lone exception I can see is the Primary where a primary president may have 'authority' over a male teacher.) And, thought, what a colossal waste!!

I am not sure why Mormon Inc. excludes women from administration. I suspect it has to do with some Old Testament mentality informed by the first-half of 20th century mindset that established specific, limited roles for women within society. Whatever the case, the result is that the Mormon Church loses the potential contribution that could be made by these millions of skilled, compassionate, spiritual, wise, productive people, who, if they had administrative roles, would surely make a huge contribution to the LDS membership. Just think of all the people who could potentially benefit from the ministrations of women. Think also of all the women who could grow and learn personally and spiritually through opportunities to minister to others. Again, what a waste!

There are any number of evidences that Mormon Inc. is man-made and man-led, with no more divine guidance than, say, the local YMCA. This is surely one of them. It boggles the mind that a supremely intelligent, enlightened being would not only allow, but cause this tragic waste to happen.

I am wondering what arguments our apologist friends have (besides quoting iron age nostrums) to justify this tragically wasteful practice.

[_beastie]

It does seem to me that no organization, be it a religion or country, can afford to effectively prevent half of its population from making contributions to address the serious problems we all face.

Having said that, I'm sure apologists will respond that LDS females do take part in administrative responsibilities. Of course, they are overseen by "the priesthood", which was your point. In addition, I don't believe it's accurate to imply that the LDS church has historically discouraged females from obtaining education. In the past, it certainly discouraged females from using that education outside the home front, but I think the LDS church has been pretty good about encouraging education in both males and females.

Looking back at my own conversion, because I was at such a vulnerable and confusing crossroads of my life, I was probably generally vulnerable for the plucking of various religious groups. I've always been grateful I landed with the LDS who encourage education, versus the JWs who, by contrast, do not.

The point upon which we agree is that the LDS church does insist that its women be overseen by "the priesthood". That does seem unwarranted. And, in the more distant LDS past, was not always the case. I believe that occurred around the time of correlation (and the ERA).

[_Morrissey]

IIn addition, I don't believe it's accurate to imply that the LDS church has historically discouraged females from obtaining education. In the past, it certainly discouraged females from using that education outside the home front, but I think the LDS church has been pretty good about encouraging education in both males and females.

I concede this point.

[_solomarineris]

Having said that, I'm sure apologists will respond that LDS females do take part in administrative responsibilities. Of course, they are overseen by "the priesthood", which was your point. In addition, I don't believe it's accurate to imply that the LDS church has historically discouraged females from obtaining education. In the past, it certainly discouraged females from using that education outside the home front, but I think the LDS church has been pretty good about encouraging education in both males and females.

Does it really matter, how much LDS church encourages education among females, when they (women) cannot hold a single key financial administrative role? My CPA is not a guy with huge neck & tie but a smart lady who charges $150 hour when she comes to my office.
They cannot play the game of "Separate but Equal" and appear mainstream. Unless they realize how bigoted and sexist The Priesthood is there will be never a true equality among genders.

[_beastie]

Does it really matter, how much LDS church encourages education among females, when they (women) cannot hold a single key financial administrative role? My CPA is not a guy with huge neck & tie but a smart lady who charges $150 hour when she comes to my office.
They cannot play the game of "Separate but Equal" and appear mainstream. Unless they realize how bigoted and sexist The Priesthood is there will be never a true equality among genders.

I think it matters on an individual level. Personally, I would have been much worse off in my life had I not pursued higher education. Had I joined the JWs instead of the LDS church, I may not have been encouraged to continue my education, the way I was in the LDS church.

But you're right, as long as women are prohibited from the most powerful positions in the LDS church, and as long as they are given administrative roles only under the direction of "the priesthood", then obviously females do not have equivalent access to power in the LDS structure.

[_Morrissey]

Does it really matter, how much LDS church encourages education among females, when they (women) cannot hold a single key financial administrative role? My CPA is not a guy with huge neck & tie but a smart lady who charges $150 hour when she comes to my office.
They cannot play the game of "Separate but Equal" and appear mainstream. Unless they realize how bigoted and sexist The Priesthood is there will be never a true equality among genders.

I think it matters on an individual level. Personally, I would have been much worse off in my life had I not pursued higher education. Had I joined the JWs instead of the LDS church, I may not have been encouraged to continue my education, the way I was in the LDS church.

But you're right, as long as women are prohibited from the most powerful positions in the LDS church, and as long as they are given administrative roles only under the direction of "the priesthood", then obviously females do not have equivalent access to power in the LDS structure.

Not only are women only given admin roles under the direction of the priesthood, these admin roles (with the exception of primary and maybe a couple other very minor positions) are limited to authority over other women and children.

This and women are prohibited from ministering to men in any formal fashion. Plus, the opportunities to minister (e.g., tend to the spiritual and other needs of members) are severely constrained, not only depriving members of this potentially great benefit, but also excluding women from the growth, challenges, spiritual nourishment, and satisfaction that come through ministrations to others.

It is thus much, much more than prohibition from the 'most powerful positions.

It is disappointment to me that the so wonderful, talented, confident, etc. women that belong to the Mormon Church so meekly acquiesce to this state of affairs.

The inherent lack of fairness and huge loss associated with this policy is in my mind that this policy is not the will of some wise and loving being, but is the product of men who bring a set of outdated biases to the job.

[_Yoda]

Hi, Morrisey!

First of all, congrats on your daughter's accomplishments. You must be very proud.

I completely agree with you that the current direction of the Church in regards to women not holding the priesthood is a man-made phenomenon. My husband, who is as TBM as they come, actually also agrees. He has basically "shelved" it, saying that in the afterlife, it will work out.

I definitely think that there are pieces to the puzzle missing. In the temple, women do administer blessings during the Initiatory work. Also, as Beastie eluded to, in the early Church, women were able to administer blessings to the sick, etc. In the Old Testament, there are prophetesses as well as prophets.

It is a frustrating shame that out of date culture has overriden what I believe to be God's ultimate intentions and goals.

[_Gazelam]

It is a well established doctrine in the Church that no amount of success can compensate for failure in the home. It is a mother who makes a house a home. In the church the title of mother carries as much if not more weight than any priesthood office. It is more important and carries more lasting influence than any church calling.

Is Mary the mother of our Savior less signifigant than John the Baptist? It was not John that taught Christ throughout his childhood years how to act and behave. It was not Zacharias who was honored by God to raise his son and nurture the Messiah.

Priesthood is a burden to be born by men. It trains us to be nuturing and less selfish, as the only way for priesthood to bless the lives of its bearers is in service to others. It is in this way Priesthood and Motherhood are a perfect partnership. As a priesthood bearer counsels with his divine partner on his struggles in sanctifying those he is appointed over, a mother counsels with her divine partner on her struggles in sanctifying their children.

"We men know the women of God as wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, associates, and friends. You seem to tame us and to gentle us, and, yes, to teach and to inspire us. For you, we have admiration as well as affection, because righteousness is not a matter of role, nor goodness a matter of gender. In the work of the Kingdom, men and women are not without each other, but do not envy each other, lest by reversals and renunciations of role we make a wasteland of both womanhood and manhood.' (Ensign, May 1978, p.10)

It is one of Satans great victories in these adulterous last days that he has lured so many away from the understanding of the divine roles of gender. When the Spirit of the Lord is taken in and listened to, he whispers to us withen our hearts and minds, he tells us what our divine potential is and what we need to do to get there. No person who is in posetion of this influence will ever seek the duties and responsibilities of the opposite gender. Gender has its eternal and divine role, they compliment their opposite and work together. When a husband and wife enter heaven, they do so side by side as eternal companions.

[_beastie]

No success can compensate for failure in the home says as much about the importance of fatherhood as motherhood. Fatherhood, not priesthood, is the complement to motherhood.

[_Phouchg]

I think Gaz's speech is a perfect parody of what tripe come gurgling out of the fiction-writing machines at the ministry of truth at 50 E. North Temple.

I also don't see "Mother" as any title on any church organization chart.

Just keep putting women up on that pedestal...but don't look up their skirts.


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