Is Fast and Testimony Meeting Responsible?

[_JohnStuartMill]

(Just so nobody accuses me of pulling a Wade, I'll come right out and give my opinion: "No.")

I think we're all familiar with the kind of statements that are made in Mormon fast and testimony meetings: "I know with every fiber of my being that the Church is true, because the Holy Ghost has witnessed this to me," "I'm as sure that the Church is true as that I'm standing in this room," etc. Moreover, this surety is encouraged by the public nature of the meetings. It's not surprising that people who go up and give "weak" testimonies like "the Church is probably true" are looked at askance by their Mormon audience.

So, Mormons speak as if they've developed an airtight epistemology, but to what extent is this public assuredness justified? Our own Dr. Peterson has acknowledged that "reflective" Mormons don't deny that "spiritual experiences are interpreted through filters of culture, psychology, etc." Given the possibility that these filters could distort Mormons' apprehension of their spiritual experiences, are their claims to "know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Church is true" justified? Furthermore, is the Church's encouragement of such testimony bearing irresponsible? Why, or why not?

[_Gazelam]

I can say for myself that I know without a doubt that the Church is true. God himself has told me in response to a yes or no question. I personally had a powerful spiritual experience, and at the time I felt like I was finally catching up to everyone else.

Since that time I've come to see that what I experienced was something rare. I've asked for testimonies in elders quorum on various occasions from the class and gotten some interesting responses. Some recall just simply "knowing" that its true through calm reassurance on occasion, others seem to be on borrowed testimony. Some seem to use the approach that it makes sense to them through study.

This leads me to believe that perhaps you get the amount of testimony that you need for your own purpose. Perhaps I was weak enough that the Lord saw fit to send me a powerful witness when I needed it. Others might not need that type of reassurance, the calm witness they receive in gentle form over the years is enough for them. They recognize the spirit without needing a large bite from the fruit of the tree of life. others might need the witness I got, but haven't excercised faith enough to call down the witness they need.

Everyone is at a different point along the path, and the Lord will see fit to reassure them when they need it. That being said we often reeive a witness of the Spirit when we hear the testimonies of the servants of God. That witness when that testimony is born is often enough to send a person to their knees to pray soon after that taste, leading them to find a powerful witness of their own. Then they can share in that testimony, having received it for themselves.

The scriptures are often that testimony, sending people to prayer after reading Moronis promise. A testimony born by a faithful member can have this same effect. So suffer through some of the bad testimonies you hear in church, the kind where people bare witness that their dog is now in heaven, and every so often youll hear an honest testimony that touches your mind and heart. The Holy Ghost can work upon us that way and encourage us.

[_Roger Morrison]

A good thoughtful question John. And, a good thoughtful Mormon response GAZ. Your two schools of thought are well represented.

To the question of being responsible: The LDS FTM is responsible for sowing seeds of faith in the LDS institution, and belief in the mythologies and mission that base the Corporate entity and its reason-for-being.

The LDS FTM is irresponsible in that the "freedom of speech" principle is often violated by folks saying things that are not 'testimony' but rather hear-say and opinions. Things that children and other impressionable types accept as truths. Here we encounter a place and means of indoctrination that serves its purpose well.

One of the meeting's purposes is social/physical. Much as an AA meeting, the FTM gathers people of like minds with experiences to share. Another is spiritual/emotional, wherein the intent is to lift the spirits of individuals to confirm and validate their LDS membership as preferable/superior to any other church. In this they are Totalitarian and Elitist, which generally speaking, serves most LDS adherants well.

As Public Floggings have been left behind in our more humanized society, the time will come when Public Flagging will be abandoned as unnessesary in organizations/groups based on mentality rather than on emotionality... Don't ya think???
Roger
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[_hobart]

I think the LDS community sets its own requirements for justification of beliefs/knowledge...and that's what testimonies are built upon: that belief structure. As Alvin Plantinga says, "The Christian will of course suppose that belief in God is entirely proper and rational; if he doesn't accept this belief on the basis of other propositions, he will conclude that it is basic for him and quite properly so. [Others] may disagree; but how is that relevant? Must my criteria, or those of the Christian [or Mormon] community, conform to their examples? Surely not. The Christian community is responsible to its set of examples, not to theirs" ("The Reformed Objection to Natural Theology" Christian Scholar's Review 11, no 3 1982:187-198).

Mormons have an understanding and belief in what they deem proper justification for beliefs....emotional feelings, understood as representing "the Spirit," in a some subjective way that we cannot even begin to talk about here, is evidence to the individual to believe in such-in-such. Testimony of others does nothing to justify, by itself another's beliefs, but it surely would set up ideas for others of how such a belief can be gained. I would have to agree, JSM, in your quote, "spiritual experiences are interpreted through filters of culture, psychology, etc."

[_harmony]

Mormons have an understanding and belief in what they deem proper justification for beliefs....emotional feelings, understood as representing "the Spirit," in a some subjective way that we cannot even begin to talk about here, is evidence to the individual to believe in such-in-such. Testimony of others does nothing to justify, by itself another's beliefs, but it surely would set up ideas for others of how such a belief can be gained. I would have to agree, JSM, in your quote, "spiritual experiences are interpreted through filters of culture, psychology, etc."

Which is all fine very well and good, right up until we start telling everyone else that we alone hold all truth (which, of course, implies that they... whoever they may be... don't), that we alone are God's own peculiar people (which, of course, implies that God's loves us more than he does them, no matter how good they are), and that we alone have authority from God to act in his name (which, of course, spits in the face of literally everyone else on the planet). And we wonder why no one wants to play with us.

[_Some Schmo]

Well, it’s largely responsible for the culture that encourages belief in an unbelievable thing. I mean, here you have a large room full of people who are all hungry with low blood sugar, putting them in a very susceptible state of mind. And for an hour or so, they have people standing up repeating the same unoriginal mantra, “I know the church is true… I know the church is true… I know the church is true…” In fact, they “know it with every fiber of their being.” (It’s too bad that fiber isn’t cleaning them out like it should).

It really is meant as an appeal to authority, as much as Mormons want to deny it. Hey, all these other people believe it (people who I think are smart/respectable); why shouldn’t I?

I like what Sethbag used to say about this: he doesn't need monthly meetings to encourage disbelief. He doesn't have to work at it at all. It comes naturally.

Certainly, there are other factors, primarily the motivation to believe for whatever reason. There’s nothing that quite gets you there, however, like the brainwashing sessions known as F&T meeting. It’s like Clockwork Orange without the anti-blinking mechanisms (but equally gruesome).

[_JohnStuartMill]

Interestingly, Gaz doesn't seem to agree with DCP when he says that spiritual experiences are interpreted through psychological and cultural filters. That, or he denies that such filters oblige him to exercise any skepticism at all of his interpretation of his experiences. Would DCP agree that the filters don't warrant skepticism?

[_Gazelam]

Interestingly, Gaz doesn't seem to agree with DCP when he says that spiritual experiences are interpreted through psychological and cultural filters. That, or he denies that such filters oblige him to exercise any skepticism at all of his interpretation of his experiences. Would DCP agree that the filters don't warrant skepticism?

Well, I would agree with the idea of a filter in that sometimes people have to be told that they have had a spiritual experience. I recall having discussions in Elders quorum about how to distinguish the impressions of the Spirit from emotional responses. I know that as missionaries we have to explain to people how to recognize the promptings of the Spirit.

Lets look at an example:
D&C 6:15,22-23

15 Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind; and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth;

22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

Oliver didn't know what he knew. He needed to have it pointed out to him. He had received a witness of the Spirit. Peace had been spoken to his mind, Joy had filled his heart, he had received a witness of the Holy Ghost, but didn't quite know how to recognize or use that witness.

I had a similar struggle with my brother. He was heading out into the mission field and wanted to know that he was doign the right thing. He wanted a witness. Much like Oliver I had to point out to him that he had already received numerous witnesses of the Holy Ghost. He had grown up in the church and had been surrounded by it, and he had also gone to places he should not have been, and felt the gift of the Holy Ghost that he had received rush out of him.

Sometimes people that are new to the working of the Spirit need a guide that has been there to point out to them how to listen to the whisperings of the Spirit. A guide that can show them how to listen, and how to prepare themselves to be recipients. Often times the scriptures are not enough, a testimony of a living prophet is needed.

[_Gazelam]

Harmony,

Which is all fine very well and good, right up until we start telling everyone else that we alone hold all truth (which, of course, implies that they... whoever they may be... don't), that we alone are God's own peculiar people (which, of course, implies that God's loves us more than he does them, no matter how good they are), and that we alone have authority from God to act in his name (which, of course, spits in the face of literally everyone else on the planet). And we wonder why no one wants to play with us.

Lets see... is Harmony speaking about Christ and the early so called Christian Church? Or the Joseph Smith Era? Or the Modern Church?

Or are we talking about how the family of Cain left town after Abel was killed?

So hard to tell.

[_JohnStuartMill]

Care to weigh in, Dan?