Informed Consent

[Dr Moore]

What do you think he hopes to achieve by pressing on this point?

I think his aim is clear on every episode. John has substantial experience with large company operations and received excellent training as a corporate advisor. So I believe John’s activism is informed by the corporate analogue, eg no matter the problem - product, messaging, execution, finances - ultimately every major problem is rooted in faulty leadership.

To put a finer point, John’s career as an activist has very nearly followed the hedge fund activist playbook. Friendly approach first. And if that fails, escalate by shining public light on the problems at hand (symptoms) and why all of it is due to management’s failures (root cause). Solution: management must change dramatically and quickly, or else!!

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

What do you think he hopes to achieve by pressing on this point?

I think his aim is clear on every episode. John has substantial experience with large company operations and received excellent training as a corporate advisor. So I believe John’s activism is informed by the corporate analogue, eg no matter the problem - product, messaging, execution, finances - ultimately every major problem is rooted in faulty leadership.

To put a finer point, John’s career as an activist has very nearly followed the hedge fund activist playbook. Friendly approach first. And if that fails, escalate by shining public light on the problems at hand (symptoms) and why all of it is due to management’s failures (root cause). Solution: management must change dramatically and quickly, or else!!

Well, at least he conducts himself and his business operations ethically!

Back to OP, I think the temple oaths are essentially the problem with Mormonism in a nutshell. Boy, was that surprise.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

The Church could exceed Dehlin's standards and still be totally evil. In fact, it's in their best interest to find a way to get the sore spots completely open, let it thin the herd as it may, and then move on and concentrate the lies on unfalsifiable things like the great rewards of the next life or whatever.

Rusty has tried to sell himself as a cult of personality and that's gone down in flames. Honestly, they need younger leaders to figure it out, but the answer probably isn't in fanning the cult of Smith either. They've got to become fundamentalists about something other than Smith and their origin story. Not just because the truth about the origin story makes it so unbelievable, which it does, but as a lie, it's just not resonating with the rising generation. Nobody is inspired by Joseph Smith.

The good news is that the lie surrounding Smith isn't the protective shield that perhaps John D. believes it is. Tell the truth, everyone leaves: no. Tell the truth, the herd thins a bit: yes. Keep lying and the herd becomes stronger: no. It's still getting weaker, just at a slightly slower rate than if they tell the truth. They need a massive market research undertaking to figure out something that will inspire the rising generation.

[Res Ipsa]

That’s a hard question for me, Reverend. Given the US Constitution, I don’t think informed consent is a good model. I’m more inclined to label churches and religions with a big red caveat emptor sign and leave it at that.

[Res Ipsa]

What do you think he hopes to achieve by pressing on this point?

I think his aim is clear on every episode. John has substantial experience with large company operations and received excellent training as a corporate advisor. So I believe John’s activism is informed by the corporate analogue, eg no matter the problem - product, messaging, execution, finances - ultimately every major problem is rooted in faulty leadership.

To put a finer point, John’s career as an activist has very nearly followed the hedge fund activist playbook. Friendly approach first. And if that fails, escalate by shining public light on the problems at hand (symptoms) and why all of it is due to management’s failures (root cause). Solution: management must change dramatically and quickly, or else!!

Interesting perspective, Dr. Moore. I’d never thought about what Dehlin does in that way.

[Analytics]

The LDS church is a MLM on steroids.

Exactly.

MLM’s give you a system and promise you wealth if you follow the system. The Church provides its own system in the form of an imagined covenant with God—follow the plan and you will get riches and power to the extent of being a god or goddess, king or queen, priest or priestess.

And in both cases, if you endeavor to follow the system and it doesn’t work, it is your fault. They lay on the guilt trips for not making it work.

Ultimately I don’t see “informed consent” as a serious solution, but it does make me think Richard Dawkins was on to something when he suggested children should be protected from patently false belief systems until they are 18 and can make up their own mind as an adult.

[Moksha]

A church does not sell a product or promise to make you rich; it is a voluntary religious community.

Could the product be a guaranteed exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom if payments and obedience are up to date?

[IHAQ]

My view is that John Dehlin’s informed consent is just a slogan for the catch-22.

Inform too much, people will not join. Inform too little, people will eventually find out and leave. The way John captures this fundamental product problem is “informed consent.”

I think there is a specific part of membership where informed consent is deliberately withheld, and that's in the endowment. Prior to taking out ones covenants one has to agree to abide by them before one is informed as to what they are. That's the deliberate withholding of informed consent. Not only that, there is coercive control as the recipient is sat with a person designated as his guide, usually a close family member, and the eyes of all the people in that session with them - again usually a lot of family and friends, would be upon them were they to walk out at that point.

[Kishkumen]

I think his aim is clear on every episode. John has substantial experience with large company operations and received excellent training as a corporate advisor. So I believe John’s activism is informed by the corporate analogue, eg no matter the problem - product, messaging, execution, finances - ultimately every major problem is rooted in faulty leadership.

To put a finer point, John’s career as an activist has very nearly followed the hedge fund activist playbook. Friendly approach first. And if that fails, escalate by shining public light on the problems at hand (symptoms) and why all of it is due to management’s failures (root cause). Solution: management must change dramatically and quickly, or else!!

Thanks for sharing that, Dr. Moore. As usual, you bring a fresh and valuable perspective to the issue. In your view is it just individual leaders who are the problem or is it leadership structure? Is Dehlin motivating the leaders to make better decisions or is he seeking radical restructuring?

[Kishkumen]

You hear the same things from people who join MLMs. "You think I'm stupid for joining!" in my opinion it's about convincing people to critically examine the MLM/religion that they're in. Some MLMs may work for some people, especially the ones who get in early. LDS church works great for the rich well connected families too, the ones who got in early. The families where every son becomes a bishop, stake president, or mission president.

With an MLM I would encourage people to keep track of their expenditures and income, because many MLMs have creative ways to hide the fact that you're not making money. Similarly with the LDS church, I would encourage members to keep track of how much time they spend, how much money they give, and the mental health effects on themselves and their families. If the MLM member is making money, good for them. If the LDS member is happy, good for them. John has said this many times, in the same breath as his argument for informed consent. As long as you know all the tricks that MLMs/LDS uses to keep you in the organization, and you consent to them, then everything is good.

This is really interesting. I like what you have to say here inasmuch as your advocacy of a sober accounting of benefits and costs in life decisions is always a good idea. Of course, everyone will weigh these things differently, as the Public Square article shows. I absolutely hate MLMs. But I am not the kind of person who would really thrive in one. Other people really devote themselves to these things and make a kind of life out of it. It becomes their way of socializing and finding a kind of community. So, they would value it more than I would.

My kids do Taekwondo. It isn’t cheap, but it is a discipline, a physical activity, and the school inculcates principles of good character. If we didn’t value what the school provides, there is no way we would pay the money.

Being LDS is not cheap, but it does have a proportional pricing structure. And, if you are not interested in going to the temple, it is arguably cheaper than it is for those who must keep a temple recommend for whatever reason. The benefit is being part of the LDS community. That is where personal preference kicks in. If you believe in God, and desire a demanding religious life, then the LDS Church is a good option. Greek Orthodox is another good option.

Of course, if you do not believe in God, and you do not put stock in the basic Christian message, then you should really think hard about what it is you are getting or would get out of the LDS Church.

I joined the cult of Apple, so to speak. I spend a lot of money on Apple products, watch YouTube videos on Apple products, and spend hours every day using Apple products. I am always interested in what Apple will come out with next. I get angry when Apple does something I think is stupid, but then I really hated Microsoft Windows. If my situation were different, I would make different choices. Apple can be a frustrating company. Some people would argue it is evil and that I am a horrible person or at least a hypocrite for using its products. For now none of that is dissuading me from typing this post on an iPhone.

The funny thing is that even though I do not tithe, I still do a lot of LDS oriented stuff. I just got back from a couple weeks in Utah, visiting with my LDS relatives and LDS monuments and museums. I also stopped by BYU. Soon I will be speaking at Sunstone (it will be my third Sunstone presentation). I post here most days of the year, and the only reason this place exists is because of the LDS Church.

I honestly have no regrets. It has been a good life. I did not select it in advance, but, damn, have I been lucky. Mormonism was part of my good fortune, in my opinion. I have gotten a lot more out of it than I put in. Right now I am practically a free rider. Of course, I was born in it, so it was always going to be there in my life.