NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

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_Daniel2
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NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Daniel2 »

For those that might be interested...

As I understand it, Ted Olson and David Boies worked opposite each other on the Bush/Gore presidential campaigns (though I'm too lazy, at the moment, too look up references for that), and have now recently teamed together to bring the Prop 8 question to the Federal the Supreme Court. Their joint effort serves to illustrate how civil marriage equality for LGBT couples is becoming less and less a "partisan" issue, and is viewed more and more as an issue of fundamental equal civil rights.

The article, below, gives an excellent explanation of their views (which, of course, I happen to agree with).

My view,
Darin

JULY 20, 2009

Gay Marriage and the Constitution
Why Ted Olson and I are working to overturn California's Proposition 8.

By DAVID BOIES

When I got married in California in 1959 there were almost 20 states where marriage was limited to two people of different sexes and the same race. Eight years later the Supreme Court unanimously declared state bans on interracial marriage unconstitutional.

Recently, Ted Olson and I brought a lawsuit asking the courts to now declare unconstitutional California's Proposition 8 limitation of marriage to people of the opposite sex. We acted together because of our mutual commitment to the importance of this cause, and to emphasize that this is not a Republican or Democratic issue, not a liberal or conservative issue, but an issue of enforcing our Constitution's guarantee of equal protection and due process to all citizens.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the right to marry the person you love is so fundamental that states cannot abridge it. In 1978 the Court (8 to 1, Zablocki v. Redhail) overturned as unconstitutional a Wisconsin law preventing child-support scofflaws from getting married. The Court emphasized, "decisions of this Court confirm that the right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals." In 1987 the Supreme Court unanimously struck down as unconstitutional a Missouri law preventing imprisoned felons from marrying.

There were legitimate state policies that supported the Wisconsin and Missouri restrictions held unconstitutional. By contrast, there is no legitimate state policy underlying Proposition 8. The occasional suggestion that marriages between people of different sexes may somehow be threatened by marriages of people of the same sex does not withstand discussion. It is difficult to the point of impossibility to envision two love-struck heterosexuals contemplating marriage to decide against it because gays and lesbians also have the right to marry; it is equally hard to envision a couple whose marriage is troubled basing the decision of whether to divorce on whether their gay neighbors are married or living in a domestic partnership. And even if depriving lesbians of the right to marry each other could force them into marrying someone they do not love but who happens to be of the opposite sex, it is impossible to see how that could be thought to be as likely to lead to a stable, loving relationship as a marriage to the person they do love.

Moreover, there is no longer any credible contention that depriving gays and lesbians of basic rights will cause them to change their sexual orientation. Even if there was, the attempt would be constitutionally defective. But, in fact, the sexual orientation of gays and lesbians is as much a God-given characteristic as the color of their skin or the sexual orientation of their straight brothers and sisters. It is also a condition that, like race, has historically been subject to abusive and often violent discrimination. It is precisely where a minority's basic human rights are abridged that our Constitution's promise of due process and equal protection is most vital.

Countries as Catholic as Spain, as different as Sweden and South Africa, and as near as Canada have embraced gay and lesbian marriage without any noticeable effect -- except the increase in human happiness and social stability that comes from permitting people to marry for love. Several states -- including Connecticut, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont -- have individually repealed their bans on same-sex marriage as inconsistent with a decent respect for human rights and a rational view of the communal value of marriage for all individuals. But basic constitutional rights cannot depend on the willingness of the electorate in any given state to end discrimination. If we were prepared to consign minority rights to a majority vote, there would be no need for a constitution.

The ban on same-sex marriages written into the California Constitution by a 52% vote in favor of Proposition 8 is the residue of centuries of figurative and literal gay-bashing. California allows same-sex domestic partnerships that, as interpreted by the California Supreme Court, provide virtually all of the economic rights of marriage. So the ban on permitting gay and lesbian couples to actually marry is simply an attempt by the state to stigmatize a segment of its population that commits no offense other than falling in love with a disapproved partner, and asks no more of the state than to be treated equally with all other citizens. In 2003 the United States Supreme Court in Lawrence v. Texas held that states could not constitutionally outlaw consensual homosexual activity. As Justice Anthony Kennedy elegantly wrote rejecting the notion that a history of discrimination might trump constitutional rights, "Times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom."

There are those who sincerely believe that homosexuality is inconsistent with their religion -- and the First Amendment guarantees their freedom of belief. However, the same First Amendment, as well as the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses, preclude the enshrinement of their religious-based disapproval in state law.

Gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters, our teachers and doctors, our friends and neighbors, our parents and children. It is time, indeed past time, that we accord them the basic human right to marry the person they love. It is time, indeed past time, that our Constitution fulfill its promise of equal protection and due process for all citizens by now eliminating the last remnant of centuries of misguided state discrimination against gays and lesbians.

The argument in favor of Proposition 8 ultimately comes down to no more than the tautological assertion that a marriage is between a man and a woman. But a slogan is not a substitute for constitutional analysis. Law is about justice, not bumper stickers.

Mr. Boies is the chairman of Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP.
"Have compassion for everyone you meet even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down there where the spirit meets the bone."--Miller Williams
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Darin wrote:For those that might be interested...

As I understand it, Ted Olson and David Boies worked opposite each other on the Bush/Gore presidential campaigns (though I'm too lazy, at the moment, too look up references for that), and have now recently teamed together to bring the Prop 8 question to the Federal the Supreme Court. Their joint effort serves to illustrate how civil marriage equality for LGBT couples is becoming less and less a "partisan" issue, and is viewed more and more as an issue of fundamental equal civil rights.

The article, below, gives an excellent explanation of their views (which, of course, I happen to agree with).

Agreed. A spot-on analysis for getting rid of Prop. H8!
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Brackite
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Brackite »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Darin wrote:For those that might be interested...

As I understand it, Ted Olson and David Boies worked opposite each other on the Bush/Gore presidential campaigns (though I'm too lazy, at the moment, too look up references for that), and have now recently teamed together to bring the Prop 8 question to the Federal the Supreme Court. Their joint effort serves to illustrate how civil marriage equality for LGBT couples is becoming less and less a "partisan" issue, and is viewed more and more as an issue of fundamental equal civil rights.

The article, below, gives an excellent explanation of their views (which, of course, I happen to agree with).

Agreed. A spot-on analysis for getting rid of Prop. H8!


If Proposition 8 should go, then laws discriminating against women from being able to go topless should also go.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Phouchg
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Phouchg »

Brackite wrote:If Proposition 8 should go, then laws discriminating against women from being able to go topless should also go.


sounds good to me. :biggrin:


fook
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
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_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Brackite wrote:If Proposition 8 should go, then laws discriminating against women from being able to go topless should also go.

I agree 110%!
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_malkie
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _malkie »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Brackite wrote:If Proposition 8 should go, then laws discriminating against women from being able to go topless should also go.

I agree 110%!

Once again, Canada leads the way!
NOMinal member

Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the right to marry the person you love is so fundamental that states cannot abridge it.
This of course, simply isn't true. The Supreme Court has not determined that polygamy is acceptable, or that marriages between close relatives is acceptable, and so on. In fact, historically, it was the issue of polygamy that was the first real step towards reducing what had previously been viewed as exclusively the rights of states. Furthermore, there hasn't been a single state's constitutional amendment (where passed) more closely defining marriage that has been overturned by the Supreme Court on this issue - which we should expect would have happened were this claim to actually be true. Apparently, the Supreme Court does in fact uphold the rights of states to abridge marriage.

What the Federal Supreme Court has done is to declare that marriage can't be denied on the basis of being a part of a suspect class. The problem of course is that same gender attraction hasn't been defined as a suspect class - largely on the basis that it it doesn't seem to be defined as an immutable trait - and there is a an appropriate hesitance to define a suspect class which individuals can voluntarily join or leave.

Ben M.
_Who Knows
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Who Knows »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the right to marry the person you love is so fundamental that states cannot abridge it.
This of course, simply isn't true. The Supreme Court has not determined that polygamy is acceptable, or that marriages between close relatives is acceptable, and so on. In fact, historically, it was the issue of polygamy that was the first real step towards reducing what had previously been viewed as exclusively the rights of states. Furthermore, there hasn't been a single state's constitutional amendment (where passed) more closely defining marriage that has been overturned by the Supreme Court on this issue - which we should expect would have happened were this claim to actually be true. Apparently, the Supreme Court does in fact uphold the rights of states to abridge marriage.

What the Federal Supreme Court has done is to declare that marriage can't be denied on the basis of being a part of a suspect class. The problem of course is that same gender attraction hasn't been defined as a suspect class - largely on the basis that it it doesn't seem to be defined as an immutable trait - and there is a an appropriate hesitance to define a suspect class which individuals can voluntarily join or leave.

Ben M.


Is religion a suspect class?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

No. Religion is not. Things like race, gender, age, and so on - these are immutable traits on which can be used as the basis for a suspect class.
_Who Knows
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Re: NYT Op Ed on New Challenge to Prop 8

Post by _Who Knows »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:No. Religion is not. Things like race, gender, age, and so on - these are immutable traits on which can be used as the basis for a suspect class.


I guess the Wiki needs updating then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspect_class
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
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