The Kinderhook Plates: Another Testimony of Smith's Deceptio

[_Calculus Crusader]

Mormon apologists like to claim that Joseph Smith took little to no interest in the forged Kinderhook plates but the historical record puts the lie to their desperate claims:

1 May 1843, Monday
Nauvoo 2

May 1st. A.M at the Temple. at 10. m J to L.W. P.M at prest. Josephs
... I have seen 6 brass plates which were found in Adams County ...
Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of
the person with whom they were found & he was a descendant of Ham
through the loins of Pharoah king of Egypt, and that he received his
kingdom from the ruler of heaven & earth
Allen 2, p. 117

``I have seen 6 brass plates which were found in Adams County by some
persons who were digging in a mound. They found a skeleton about 6
feet from the surface of the earth which was 9 foot high. [At this
point there is a tracing of a plate in the journal.] The plates were
on the breast of the skeleton. This diagram shows the size of the
plates being drawn on the edge of one of them. They are covered with
ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side
of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain
the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a
descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah [sic] king of Egypt, and that
he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.''
Allen 1, p.44
William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843

I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook,
in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others,
while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from
the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates
were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides
with ancient characters.

I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the
history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of
Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his
kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.

History of the LDS Church, vol. 5


We hear very frequently from our Quincy friends through Mr. Joshua Moore, who passes through that place and this in his monthly zigzag tours through the State, traveling horseback. His last call on us was last Saturday and he brought with him half a dozen thin pieces of brass, apparently very old, in the form of a bell about five or six inches long. They had on them scratches that looked like writing, and strange figures like symbolic characters. They were recently found, he said, in a mound a few miles below Quincy. When he showed them to Joseph, the latter said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written, and if Mr. Moore could leave them, he thought that by the help of revelation he would be able to translate them. So a sequel to that holy book may soon be expected.

Charlotte Haven, A Girl's Letters from Nauvoo

[_Daniel Peterson]

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai026.html

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

Very sorry, but did not the Utah branch of the Mormon church tout the Kinderhook Plates as "proof" of Joseph Smit's prophethood?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_why me]

Well I have been down this road before but I will go down it again. Lets say that Joseph Smith was a con man and a fraudster. And lets say that he made up the whole thing. Now suddenly, some plates are discovered with strange writing on them. What would you be thinking if you were Joseph Smith? I do believe that you would smell this fish a mile away. Now if he did discover the plates and suddenly more plates are discovered, he just may be hoodwinked by these plates for a brief moment. But if he were a frauster and did not see through this fraud and story, I am afraid that I would need to see him in a different light.

[_Sethbag]

Why Me, what if Joseph were indeed making things up as he went along, but while doing so, he actually believed himself? Do you believe David Koresh believed himself? Or Tony Alamo?

The Egyptian Papyri were real, and Joseph made up a tall tale about them to impress his followers, confident that nobody would be able to contradict him. If Joseph thought the Kinderhook Plates were real, why would he not do exactly the same thing? If he thought they were real, no doubt he thought nobody else would be able to contradict anything he said about them, and he was free to use them to advance his stature amongst his followers.

I don't understand why you can't see this possibility.

[_Benjamin McGuire]

The issue, Sethbag, is that apparently he didn't. The entire debate revolves around Clayton's journal entry. Unlike the other projects you mention (which have a great deal of evidence available), there is nothing there. There is some evidence that suggests (and this is from the perpetrator of the fraud - at least one of them) that Joseph didn't believe they were authentic. So ... its just one of those things that comes up over and over again and demonstrates that old saying - that any amount of information, no matter how small, will expand to fill any intellectual void, no matter how large.

[_DarkHelmet]

Well I have been down this road before but I will go down it again. Lets say that Joseph Smith was a con man and a fraudster. And lets say that he made up the whole thing. Now suddenly, some plates are discovered with strange writing on them. What would you be thinking if you were Joseph Smith? I do believe that you would smell this fish a mile away. Now if he did discover the plates and suddenly more plates are discovered, he just may be hoodwinked by these plates for a brief moment. But if he were a frauster and did not see through this fraud and story, I am afraid that I would need to see him in a different light.

That makes sense, but why would Joseph Smith's initial examination of the papyrus scrolls be (paraphrasing) "This scroll is the writing of Abraham, and this one is the writing of Joseph." Of course they were not, but he was very quick to create a story about the scrolls and the heiroglyphics on the scrolls that was completely wrong. He did the same thing with the Kinderhook plates. Created an initial story about the plates that was completely wrong.

If he is a true prophet, maybe he is the personality type that spouts off with his own theories before he receives true revelation.

[_Doctor Steuss]

DonBradley has been taunting and teasing me with an article on the topic that he has been working on for quite some time.

The basic conclusion from his evaluation of the evidence (hopefully I get this right…) is that Joseph did indeed attempt a translation of the plates; however, the attempted translation was secular in nature.

Essentially, Joseph didn’t send for the seer stone, or pray to G-d, or utilize any purported prophetic gifts but instead sent for his various grammars/lexicons/dictionaries to attempt the translation.

Here’s to hoping that Don will stop tempting poor misanthropes such as I, and publish his work on the topic soon.

[_Calculus Crusader]

The issue, Sethbag, is that apparently he didn't. The entire debate revolves around Clayton's journal entry. Unlike the other projects you mention (which have a great deal of evidence available), there is nothing there. There is some evidence that suggests (and this is from the perpetrator of the fraud - at least one of them) that Joseph didn't believe they were authentic. So ... its just one of those things that comes up over and over again and demonstrates that old saying - that any amount of information, no matter how small, will expand to fill any intellectual void, no matter how large.

Yes, William Clayton, a faithful follower and scribe of Joseph Smith and the History of the Church [sic] went to great pains to misrepresent him. Mormon apologists are damn pathetic.

[_karl61]

I agree - don't ever quote William Clayton again in Church publications if you doubt his credibility.