Spong, the nature of "Life"

[_Roger Morrison]

In this piece from his latest News Letter, I've selected, from a lot of verbage what I thought pertenant to discuss--at least to consider. It's pasted below for your consideration:

My study had convinced me that the way most religious people approach the subject of life after death is all wrong. The emphasis cannot and should not be on that hypothetical place that we postulate will come after we die. That approach is nothing more than a dead end, primarily because there are no data that can be observed, cited or studied. No one is available who has ever been there and returned who might be interviewed. No one can go to this hypothetical place either to observe it or study it. Every thing we human beings have ever said about life after death can be nothing more than speculative. In the great age of faith, which we now think of as "the childhood of our humanity," such speculation was considered valid and even learned. People in that time of history would debate endlessly on what the afterlife was like. Ecclesiastical leaders would even subdivide this speculative realm into various regions, which they presumed to describe meticulously and in many volumes. There was of course hell, with its punishing fires, and heaven, with its golden streets and lamp stands, its diet of milk and honey and its promise of eternal rest. Next purgatory was added, located, according to these learned folks, near hell but not actually being part of it. This was quite economical, for it allowed the fires that were designed to punish eternally also to be used merely to purge those who received a time limited sentence before being welcomed into eternal life. It was, if you will, a "central heating system" in the afterlife. Then later another region was added, called limbo, that was reserved for unbaptized children and noble pagans who, undoubtedly to the Church fathers, stood outside the only sure saving faith tradition but who were clearly not deserving of being ultimately condemned by God. These ideas were reinforced by a host of "authorities." Dante wrote his "Divine Comedy" to frame these images and later John Milton wrote his "Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Regained" to give vivid contrast to these ecclesiastical concepts. Life beyond this life was clearly assumed to be describable. These leaders, however, knew no more than we know today about this subject, which is absolutely nothing. So it was that when the age of faith, which had invested these images with authenticity, began to decline under the intellectual assault of such fathers of modernity as Copernicus, Galileo, Isaac Newton and Charles Darwin, these images began their inevitable decline, first into being ignored, then into being significantly doubted and finally into being generally abandoned. In this manner, the human conviction about the reality of life after death simply faded from view. Yes, I know that polls continue to show that a great majority of America's citizens still believe in heaven and a few less believe in hell. Polls, however, are so misleading. A closer analysis reveals that most people, unable to face the starkness of life's ever-looming mortality, are far better described as people who "believe in believing" in life after death rather than those who actually believe in it. Thousands of signs in contemporary life point to this truth. In order to write in a serious way on this subject, therefore, one discovers quickly the inability to counter this dying conviction by artificially resuscitating the corpse of yesterday's belief system. A new starting point must be found. As I developed the book that new starting point became quite clear. No belief in life after death will make any sense until life itself is understood. This was how life before death became my doorway into the subject of life after death. This trip was

[_Roger Morrison]

Unfortunately I could not add to the bottom of what is above. The ability to add additionl text was not there??? I've been experiencing this on MDB for several weeks. Keene has never heard of any such thing before. Are others have this experience? It is very frustrating! But as with other of life's challenges, "I will over come!" If no one else can help...

Annnyyyyway, I think Spong speaks with more candor here than many readers will find comforting. OTOH, others will pump their elbows while shouting "YES!!!!!" Your comments?
Roger
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[_RockSlider]

“No belief in life after death will make any sense until life itself is understood”

Thoughts from a monogamous heterosexual perspective:

To me, an interesting aspect of the Jewish synagogue or Mormon temple is the physical separation of the man and his wife during services. I’m sure this has reasons other than my observations here … but here goes anyway.

As well as I know my wife after all of these years, we still are on our own personal journey, from birth to death. Do I really understand her inner most perceptions, fears, joys? Do I even understand my own perceptions, fears, joys? If not, how could I hope to understand hers?

I’m not sure I could describe my perceptions of life in my teens up through my forties. An emersion in it seemed to exclude much analysis of it. Even though married with children, I suppose my perceptions remained very selfish and self centered.
I always wondered how couples could stick it out for 20+ years and then end up in high divorce rates. Going through mid-life crisis and menopause, pure hell, you learn/come to an understanding of who has a chance? I suppose this brings one kicking and screaming into more realistic perceptions of one’s own mortality, and typically an unhealthy review/conclusion of one’s past achievements.

Children don’t do it, but grandchildren seem to have a different effect. Maybe it’s just a survival of and moving past mid-life maturing process and the dawning of the “golden years”, but then again, maybe there is something about the grandchildren.

I assume others might be like me, in that these years seem to be very reflective for me. They bring new perspective, one in which children and grandchildren become the center. One in which I don’t feel quite so immersed in life but become a bit more of an observer of it. Somehow, whatever personal journey my wife has also been on all these years, our courses seem to be on a collision course. We really have become one.
So what does all this mean … what is life? Hell who knows. I know it’s hard, I believe our modern technologies have added another dimension of craziness to it. But somehow there is a celebration in love and relationships that bring to it some higher dimension.

I love my wife … I love my children … do I know what follows? No idea … do I have hope for something … you bet.

[_RockSlider]

Unfortunately I could not add to the bottom of what is above.

there is something funky about this sites message dialog box after the text gets past a curtain length.

[_Roger Morrison]

Unfortunately I could not add to the bottom of what is above.

there is something funky about this sites message dialog box after the text gets past a curtain length.

Hi Relief Society, I don't mean to be mean, but it is gratifying to know that I'm not suffering alone

You also said:

I assume others might be like me, in that these years seem to be very reflective for me. They bring new perspective, one in which children and grandchildren become the center. One in which I don’t feel quite so immersed in life but become a bit more of an observer of it. Somehow, whatever personal journey my wife has also been on all these years, our courses seem to be on a collision course. We really have become one.
So what does all this mean … what is life? Hell who knows. I know it’s hard, I believe our modern technologies have added another dimension of craziness to it. But somehow there is a celebration in love and relationships that bring to it some higher dimension.

I tend to agree with your above sentiment. I sometimes think of it this way, "...I'm smarter now--in my 70s--than i have ever been!" Isn't that what life's supposed to be about? Older & wiser...

I think Spong is refering to that in some way. Moving beyond the beliefs of childhood. Actually taking the initiative to do so. Often to the consternation of powers and influences that would rather we remain "believers" than become creative, critical "thinkers".

My experience(s) and developed power(s) of observation have brought me to my present state of understanding and "belief" that makes me more comfortable with both the "known" and (..."funky" just started

[_Roger Morrison]

...continued from above:

I think Spong is refering to that in some way. Moving beyond the beliefs of childhood. Actually taking the initiative to do so. Often to the consternation of powers and influences that would rather we remain "believers" than become creative, critical "thinkers".

My experience(s) and developed power(s) of observation have brought me to my present state of understanding and "belief" that makes me more comfortable with both the "known" and (..."funky" just started

...the "unknowns" of life. As you (Relief Society) and me have come to realize our earning-time often intruded on our yearning/learning-times; wherein we did as best we could with our limited time and limited knowledge. Now, in later years and with different resposibilities, we can apply our physical and psyche/thinking selves--especially thinking--to both "knowns" and "unknowns" with more honesty than the (our) past allowed. Particulary in religion's place of influence through the past 4,000 years, and to seriously consider its validity in our current time.

Which threatens every religious institution, and challenges them to question them selves. Some being more willing than others to do so. Spong, among others, is trying to save the best ...funky stuff again ...of religiousness as the institution rids itself of its fallacies...
ROGER
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[_RockSlider]

"our earning-time often intruded on our yearning/learning-times; wherein we did as best we could with our limited time and limited knowledge."

Exactly.

by the way ... use notepad or Word to compose your thoughts then cut and paste here to get around the funky

[_Roger Morrison]

"our earning-time often intruded on our yearning/learning-times; wherein we did as best we could with our limited time and limited knowledge."

Exactly.

Roger: Now, with the time & our past experiences, it is much easier to swim though the morass of fables, myths and deliberate untruth that based the Judeo-Christian religion's curriculum that bore false witness to misdirect human understanding of natural affection...

The truth of their ignorance and their suppression of humanity to serve their own perverse sense of a Divine Master, using fear, guilt and physical abuses to accomplish their ends, is finally blowing up. Leaving the mess in the hands of better educated persons beyond the reach of indoctrination and prejudice... Slow and lengthy process. But it is happening...

by the way ... use notepad or Word to compose your thoughts then cut and paste here to get around the funky

Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, that might be better all around. Would give me more time to think things though!! YIKES!!!
Roger
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