DiscussMormonism.com

Nope -- not a trick question.

But if you say "Russia twp., Lorain Co., Ohio," I'd like to see a reliable source citation.

Uncle Dale

Great question Uncle Dale. I would like to know what Parley P. Pratt, Orson Hyde, Mr. Rigdon , Joseph Smith Sr. were all doing during 1826.

but let us stay with Pratt - what are your thoughts?

karl61 wrote:Great question Uncle Dale. I would like to know what Parley P. Pratt, Orson Hyde, Mr. Rigdon , Joseph Smith Sr. were all doing during 1826.

but let us stay with Pratt - what are your thoughts?

My guess is that his Autobiography is not all that helpful in providing information.
He says that he went to see his uncles, Ira Pratt and Allen Pratt, in Wayne Co., NY.
In 1826 their residences were in Ontario Co. -- but Wayne Co. was then split off
from Ontario, placing the uncles a few miles northeast of Joseph Smith's family.

So -- perhaps sometime in early 1826 Pratt was within walking distance of
Joseph Smith's home -- and perhaps a stone's throw from Oliver Cowdery's home.

That is not much for us to go on. Elsewhere in his Autobiography Pratt provides
considerable detail on all the hard farmwork he was doing. But, for 1826, he is
strangely silent about such labors.

Perhaps he was doing something in 1826 that he did not later wish to discuss.
My thoughts are that his "Angel of the Prairies" story may hold some clues:
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1880PrtA.htm

UD

Uncle Dale wrote: Perhaps he was doing something in 1826 that he did not later wish to discuss.
My thoughts are that his "Angel of the Prairies" story may hold some clues:
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1880PrtA.htm

UD

I'm curious as well, particularly about the amount of time he spent in Buffalo and the vicinity of Niagara Falls, and to whom he may have spoken with while there.

"I took leave of my friends with many tears and blessings on their part, and with feelings deep and indescribable on my own. I soon had the gratification of beholding Niagara Falls..."

AlmaBound wrote:
I'm curious as well, particularly about the amount of time he spent in Buffalo and the vicinity of Niagara Falls, and to whom he may have spoken with while there.

"I took leave of my friends with many tears and blessings on their part, and with feelings deep and indescribable on my own. I soon had the gratification of beholding Niagara Falls..."

IF we can trust Pratt's account, then he appears to have taken the same route in 1826 as he and
Cowdery did, on their westward trek of late 1830. In Buffalo he would have had an opportunity,
for example, of encountering the same, literate and Christianized Seneca reservation Indians as
he attempted to convert while on his 1830 trek.

What I want to know, is where did Pratt get the money to finance his westward trip of 1826?
Did his uncles Ira and Allen Pratt extend him a small loan? --- or, did he "work his way west?"

In 1879 the Rev. Samuel Williams (one of Rigdon's replacements in the Pittsburgh Baptist pastorate)
remarked: "Parley Pratt was a tin Pedlar who passed from Conn. out to the West who brought
about the acquaintance between Rigdon and Smith."
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/Wil ... #Will1pg02

While I no nothing about Pratt's ever having visited Connecticut, his being a "tin Pedlar" was confirmed
by a local Palmyra source in 1881:

"There was a ubiquitous tin peddler in those days by the name of Parley P. Pratt. He knew everybody
in Western New York and Northern Ohio. He was a member of Rev. Sidney Rigdon's church in Mentor,
Ohio. Perhaps Pratt was the carrier-vulture who told Rigdon of the money digger, Smith."
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1881Eatn.htm#pg03a

Pratt could not have been a "tin peddler" for much of his career. The year 1826 appears to have
been the only period in which people in "Western New York" would have been aware of Pratt's
activities in this line of work.

If Pratt did work his way west, as a tin peddler, he would have needed a supply of tinwares, to
sell to people along the way. A "pedestrian peddler" in those days carried what goods he could,
in a pack carried upon his back. The poorer peddlers did not actually own their sales stock --
they had to stop now and then to remit their collected money to the actual tinwares owner --
and then pack up new sales stock.

If Pratt filled his pack in Rochester, and followed the canal west, he might have been out of goods
by the time he reached Buffalo -- where he could have stocked-up once again. Or, Pratt might have
followed along as the helper of a tinwares dealer who drove a wagon full of goods. In such a
capacity Pratt would have walked the lesser-traveled country roads, reporting back in to his
tinsmith boss every few days, at pre-arranged meeting places.


Illustration of a Nineteenth Century Tinwares Peddler's Wagon

UD

Uncle Dale wrote:What I want to know, is where did Pratt get the money to finance his westward trip of 1826?

Great question.

Uncle Dale wrote:IF we can trust Pratt's account, then he appears to have taken the same route in 1826 as he and Cowdery did, on their westward trek of late 1830.

I've wondered if this same trek wasn't followed a few years before by a young Alvin Smith.

Uncle Dale wrote:He was a member of Rev. Sidney Rigdon's church in Mentor, Ohio.

I've known for a while that Pratt was a part of Rigdon's church in Mentor; however, what I don't know is the date Pratt joined that congregation - do you have insight into Pratt's joining of that church in Mentor?

Uncle Dale wrote:... IF we can trust Pratt's account, then he appears to have taken the same route in 1826 as
he and Cowdery did, on their westward trek of late 1830.
...

Can we say anything more about this oddity? Was 1830 the first time that Pratt and Cowdery
walked the trail from Buffalo to the Ohio Western Reserve together?

Consider these points:

1. Two old sources identify Pratt as a tin peddler, operating in Western NY and Ohio

2. The only year that seems to fit such an occupation for Pratt was 1826 -- when he went to Ohio.

3. B. H. Roberts calls Oliver Cowdery a "blacksmith" in his pre-Mormon days
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs2/19 ... htm#pg426a

4. An early Palmyra source calls Cowdery a "part-time coppersmith" in his pre-Mormon days
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA ... 120088-4a5

5. Oliver Cowdery was also identified as a peddler, operating in Western NY, Canada (and Ohio?)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH ... htm#112530
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY ... htm#053131

6. In 1826 Pratt says he was at his uncles, in Wayne Co., NY (very near Lyons)

7. In 1827 somebody was sending letters to Oliver, at Lyons, but he was not picking them up
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY ... htm#110727

So, what do we have here? Two young pedestrian peddlers -- one selling tinwares, and the
other a part-time metalsmith -- who both travel the roads of western New York -- who are
both in that area in 1826-27 -- who both travel together on those same roads in 1830 --
whose word-prints are both identified in the 1830 text of the Book of Mormon -- who both
are suspected of acting as a contact person between Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jr.

So -- I extend my original question to include Oliver: "Where were Parley P. Pratt and his
fellow peddler, Oliver Cowdery, in the Spring of 1826?"

I'll supply a possible hint, from an 1831 newspaper:

At last some person who joined them spoke of a person in Ohio near Painesville, who had a particular felicity in finding out the spots of ground where money is hid and riches obtained. He related long stories how this person had been along shore in the east -- how he had much experience in money digging -- how he dreamt of the very spots where it could be found. "Can we get that man here?" asked the enthusiastic Smiths. "Why," said the other, "I guess as how we could by going for him." "How far off?" "I guess some two hundred miles -- I would go for him myself but I want a little change to bear my expenses." To work the whole money-digging crew went to get some money to pay the expenses of bringing on a man who could dream out the exact and particular spots where money in iron chests was hid under ground. Old Smith returned to his gingerbread factory -- young Smith to his financing faculties, and after some time, by hook or by crook, they contrived to scrape together a little "change" sufficient to fetch on the money dreamer from Ohio.

After the lapse of some weeks the expedition was completed, and the famous Ohio man made his appearance among them. This recruit was the most cunning, intelligent, and odd of the whole. He had been a preacher of almost every religion -- a teacher of all sorts of morals. -- He was perfectly au fait with every species of prejudice, folly or fanaticism, which governs the mass of enthusiasts. In the course of his experience, he had attended all sorts of camp-meetings, prayer meetings, anxious meetings, and revival meetings....
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY ... htm#083131

What year would THAT have been?

Historians are generally in agreement that, up until the end of March, 1826, Joseph Smith, Jr. was
in Chenengo Co., New York. By the fall of 1827 he had broken off all cooperation with the Palmyra
area money-diggers. Thus, the time period for the Palmyra area money-diggers sending a man
out to Ohio, to fetch back Elder Sidney Rigdon was early 1826 through late 1827.

1. Where was Joseph Smith, Jr. in the Spring of 1826?
2. Where was Parley P. Pratt in the Spring of 1826?
3. Where was Oliver Cowdery in the Spring of 1826?

I do not know. I do know one thing, however -- In the Spring of 1826 Sidney Rigdon
was in Bainbridge twp., Geauga Co., Ohio -- within walking distance of the residence
of a pioneer from Manchester, N.Y. named Gadius Stafford. Larry C. Porter identifies
Gad Stafford as a very early (pre-1831) NY Mormon -- Gad Stafford was paying taxes in Ohio,
on a farm (within walking distance of Sidney Rigdon's Bainbridge cabin) at Auburn, Ohio --
AS EARLY AS 1829.

Uncle Dale

AlmaBound wrote:...do you have insight into Pratt's joining of that church in Mentor?

IF we can trust Pratt's autobiography, he was BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS
before 1826. At that date nearly all Baptist ministers immersed adults as a sign of
repentance -- following a conversion experience, in which sins had been forgiven.

Even if the officiating minister (in Oswego, NY?) gave Pratt the standard baptism of
his day, there was a conflict between Baptist requirements and Pratt's beliefs. In
Pratt's belief, his sins were remitted at the time of his adult immersion. But in the
doctrine of the Baptists, Pratt had to first of all bear testimony to being overcome by
the Holy Ghost and being born again in a sin-remitting personal conversion experience.

In the early 1820s the only American ministers providing adult immersion for the
remission of sins were members of what we now call the Stone-Campbell movement.
At that time Sidney Rigdon was a Campbellite minister.

Pratt says he ended up in Lorain Co., Ohio, some thirty miles or more west of Rigdon's
Mentor congregation. That would have put Pratt in the Calvinist Grand River Baptist
Association (along with Rigdon's Mentor congregation). However, Rigdon and the
Mentor congregation were expelled from the Grand River Association in 1828. If
Parley became an actual member of the Mentor congregation, it was evidently in
1828-29. He does not seem to acknowledge Rigdon as his pastor until 1829-30.
I think Pratt was purposely hazy regarding their relationship.

Again -- read Angel of the Prairies --

UD

Uncle Dale wrote:Pratt says he ended up in Lorain Co., Ohio, some thirty miles or more west of Rigdon's
Mentor congregation. That would have put Pratt in the Calvinist Grand River Baptist
Association (along with Rigdon's Mentor congregation). However, Rigdon and the
Mentor congregation were expelled from the Grand River Association in 1828.

Hey beastie, want to get really blown away? Compare this with Alma chapters 31 and 32.

The Zoramites sound like "elect" Calvinists, right?

Hey beastie, want to get really blown away? Compare this with Alma chapters 31 and 32.

The Zoramites sound like "elect" Calvinists, right?

They most certainly do. Hmmmmm.....

So how does the insertion of biographical information about the parties involved impact the spalding theory? Is it possible that the Spalding manuscript provided more of the historical framework, and the details were filled in by the involved parties?