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Pasted below is from S's latest News Letter re human evolution ...

There is something about life in both its plant and animal forms that is driven by survival. It is not a conscious choice, for plants do not think or plan, and yet survival motivates all vegetative forms of life. It is not a rational thinking process for animals do not think abstractly or plan ahead for future contingencies. It is a natural response found in all living things. It is part of what it means to be alive.

To our knowledge only one living creature, the human being, is conscious of the fact of its inevitable death. In this single creature this universal drive to survive becomes self-conscious. This creature alone knows in advance that he or she is mortal and that no matter how deep in nature the drive to survive might be, only the human being is aware that he or she will lose the battle for life. How will that drive then express itself in the self-conscious creature? Is the human yearning for life after death, which appears to mark all human life from the earliest dawning of self-consciousness, anything more that a sign of this universal will to survive? On the other hand is the human discovery of the oneness and interdependence of all life, the dawning awareness that we are part of something not bound by our limitations, perhaps not even bound by our mortality? Is self-consciousness the doorway into God? Does this insight open us to the possibility that evolution is a journey not just into life and consciousness, but also into transcendence, oneness and even eternity?

... it seems worth still following my thought about the evolution of religion in human society to share that story with you. To that I will turn next week.
John Shelby Spong

Is the idea of 'life-after-death' what gives meaning to mortality IYO? If so, why?
Roger M

If we're using religion as a base then the afterlife in general does not seem to have been defined with man's happiness in mind.

Paganism: While varied, most of them did not have a happy afterlife if they had one. For example, I was reading the other day about one belief that the souls of the dead were sub-human entities that howl in pain endlessly and only a draught of sacrificial blood can restore them to temporary lucidity. Hardly happy.... The Greeks had Hades for all, the Assyrians and Babylonians something similar, the Norse's best destination was Valhalla where the lucky dead were marshalled to die again fighting Ragnarok.

Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism: Life is seen to be the primary evil, and death gives you nothing but another life. If comprehension of death scares us then escape from the karmic wheel would be bad. Yet it is seen as the ultimate good.

Judaism: The history of Judaism that melds with our knowledge of it from historical sources does not seem to have a concept of heaven. They had Sheol, the destination of all souls which seemed to be a gloomy place comparable to Hades.

Christianity and Islam stand virtually alone offering a kind of paradise. LDS are even more alone in stating that almost all of humanity will go to live in glory and enjoy themselves forever.

It seems that the acceptance of continuity is mixed around the world. Paganism and Judaism had undesireable ones, eastern religions wanted continuity to cease in any meaningful way, and Christianity and Islam (a heresy of Christianity) alone make it pleasant. Surely if this drive to continue so motivates our religious thought more of it would lead to happier things.j

Peter and the other Apostles believed in ghosts. The hard part for Jesus was proving that he wasn't one.

Roger Morrison wrote:Is the idea of 'life-after-death' what gives meaning to mortality IYO? If so, why?
Roger M

I will sound condescending here, I know for a fact there's nothing after death, I'm past fifty never witnessed
anything extraordinary, supernatural, none of my prayers were visibly answered. I mean you can be only gullible for so long
believing this stuff without receiving any confirmation. Not an iota of my success I'm attributing to supernatural help, if anything I got material wealth after I turned my back on religion.
This is my cocky, arrogant opinion; some of professed believers (apologists, GA's) know there's nothing out there, they play the pretend-game of faith. Fine, whatever keeps their boat afloat.

Thanks for the run-down, Nehor. With such a gamut of beliefs, the obvious inconsistancy can reasonably lead one to question the concept of immortality/after-life in any form. I wonder at what age might a person come to the conclusion of an after-life? IF they had no religious teaching that there was such a thing...

Solo, you must be a fast-learner, while I'm a slow-learner. In my late 70's I conclude as you in your 50's... I'm not sure when all doubt was removed, in my case, but I think it would have culminated in my mid 60's. Gradually coming to that conclusion was a rather gentle and contenting process--for me. Not believing has taken nothing away from my happiness, nor has it encouraged immorality--for me. So what is gained socially by believing the myth of Heaven's reward and Hell's punishment?

The H-H teaching of today, generally speaking, is a long way from what it was in the 1800s and even in the late 1900s. So, are we gradually coming to the time of knowing the truth and experienceing its freedom?
Roger
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Roger Morrison wrote:Thanks for the run-down, Nehor. With such a gamut of beliefs, the obvious inconsistancy can reasonably lead one to question the concept of immortality/after-life in any form. I wonder at what age might a person come to the conclusion of an after-life? IF they had no religious teaching that there was such a thing...

Solo, you must be a fast-learner, while I'm a slow-learner. In my late 70's I conclude as you in your 50's... I'm not sure when all doubt was removed, in my case, but I think it would have culminated in my mid 60's. Gradually coming to that conclusion was a rather gentle and contenting process--for me. Not believing has taken nothing away from my happiness, nor has it encouraged immorality--for me. So what is gained socially by believing the myth of Heaven's reward and Hell's punishment?

The H-H teaching of today, generally speaking, is a long way from what it was in the 1800s and even in the late 1900s. So, are we gradually coming to the time of knowing the truth and experienceing its freedom?
Roger
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Roger,
First off, hard to believe you are in your late seventies, you sound very young, in any case, if you have that many years under your belt and by any chance lived in US, I do envy you to witness Golden 50's, 60's. They are my favorite US decades. I'm not a fast learner, my faith was shaped and sealed by the fate of my ancestors; you see they were one of the most faithful Christian race ever since Christ proclaimed his gospel. So what my ancestors do? Build the most magnificent churches in his name, since 300Ad, when Rome was a still pagan nation. So anyways, Churches did not come to aid of any of my ancestors when Mohammed's Crescent armies befell on them. The churches they used for herding people in and burning them alive.
So, I was the lucky descendant. I just hated that part of my history, paople would gather up every year to commemorate this BS, how they were sacrificed for Jesus. What kinda narcissistic God/Jesus would allow this s**t happen, when people did nothing but serve them?
I probably hate this narcissistic religion, which gives nothing yet demands everything. But I want to remain polite and respectful for those who believe.

solomarineris wrote:

Roger Morrison wrote:Is the idea of 'life-after-death' what gives meaning to mortality IYO? If so, why?
Roger M

I will sound condescending here, I know for a fact there's nothing after death...

So too would have said Siddhartha Gautama -- the "Light of Asia." Or, at least he would
have told us that speculation upon such matters was useless and counter-productive.

So too says my conservative Jewish wife, carefully preserving millennia old Sadducean tenets.

But I experience a "Life-after-death" process daily -- which (for me at least) gives a
great deal of "meaning to mortality."

Outside of my house, in our garden, is a noble looking palm that sheds a frond every
few months. The dead, discarded leaves collect at its base. And, if I practice my usual
neglect of gardening, those dead leaves pile up -- rot away -- and again become part
of the garden soil.

From the vegetative death and decay springs new life -- or, at least new palm fronds.
I take a special delight in witnessing such events. The tropical sun and rain speed up
the natural process, so that over the course of a few years I can actually see it work.

The palm is not the only plant growing in the composted soil -- seeds from other plants
are blown in and take root there. From death comes all sorts of life.

But there is another sort of life-after-death that makes an impression upon my mind --
and that is the tiny bits of reproductive genetics which survive from one generation
to another. I look at a photo of my great grand-mother and then look at my own
grand-daughter, and see hints of the same eyes -- the same chin -- the same smile.
A microscopic bit of my ancestor's DNA lived on, after her death. Perhaps all the
really survived was a template -- a pattern -- a biological photocopy. But it is unique
and it preserves something of my great grand mother. I find happiness in that.


"I am thinking of aurochs and angels, the secret of durable pigments,
prophetic sonnets, the refuge of art. And this is the only immortality
you and I may share, my Lolita."
-- Vladimir Nabokov


UD

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Roger Morrison wrote:Thanks for the run-down, Nehor. With such a gamut of beliefs, the obvious inconsistancy can reasonably lead one to question the concept of immortality/after-life in any form. I wonder at what age might a person come to the conclusion of an after-life? IF they had no religious teaching that there was such a thing...

The overwhelming consensus though it that there is an afterlife. One wonders why.

I remember the first time the afterlife became a real concern for me. It was the first time someone I knew well died when I was a child. The overwhelming thought (I didn't put it into these words) was that things shouldn't be this way. Death seemed an aberration....a mistake. One other odd thing about death in my faith is the conduct of the Savior at Lazarus's tomb. He wept? Why? He was about to bring Lazarus back. It seems there is something wrong in death itself. I class it as a necessary evil. I like this quote:

"I am not so much afraid of death, as ashamed thereof." -Thomas Brown

As one author pointed out to me in one sense the afterlife is one of the least religious of subjects. Many have worshipped gods with no hope of an afterlife. There have been people who feared hell or desired heaven with no real religious feeling. It is more akin to someone worrying about whether they will have money in retirement or fear of a nursing home and trying to take pragmatic steps to avoid the situation.

There are times where I wonder if the Jew of ancient Israel might not have had an advantage. For them there was no carrot of heaven in front of them. They had to worship God because he was good and not because he was going to give them eternal life. Then again, the Psalms show that the lust for earthly blessings can be as alluring as heavenly ones.

One of my favorite Christian writers put before me the situation of suddenly finding out that while God is real and is as good as I thought that he is dying. There will be no blessed afterlife. He then asks if that would be the time to switch sides.

I said earlier that the afterlife is not an entirely religious subject. The promises of my own faith are not addressed to intellectual curiosity; they're meant to inspire and frighten believers. If you approach them from a purely secular standpoint they seem to have little to offer. Look at the caricatures of heaven and hell that we have in our culture. However, if addressed to someone who loves God already and has some desire for Him (I say some because mortals can't do it perfectly) then it becomes very, very religious. Someone who loves God more then anything else will dance for joy at the thought of dwelling with him forever without the veil holding us apart. The same person will feel holy fear at the thought of separation.

Wow, I went on for a bit.....sorry.

The Nehor wrote: LDS are even more alone in stating that almost all of humanity will go to live in glory and enjoy themselves forever.

Don't forget the Church of the Hirsute Palms.

[Smiley removed for excessive hair growth]


Roger, this is a great thread topic.

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moksha wrote:

The Nehor wrote: LDS are even more alone in stating that almost all of humanity will go to live in glory and enjoy themselves forever.

Don't forget the Church of the Hirsute Palms.

Yeah, more alone but still not unique on this point.

Hi Solo, thanks for the commpliment--I thrive on them :-) You said:

[quote][What kinda narcissistic God/Jesus would allow this s**t happen, when people did nothing but serve them? RM: An imagined "God" used by the inventor to manipulate the ignorant, superstitious primitive submissives of ancient times. Unfortunately, when such "teaching" (indoctrination) is connected to tribal, and personal, survival it becomes environmental to new-borns. Escaped from with great difficulty only by those with higher intelligence and inquiring minds. Education is key...
I probably hate this narcissistic religion, which gives nothing RM: I'm not certain of that. I think there are communal factors that do serve some positives in some lives... yet demands everything. But I want to remain polite and respectful for those who believe. RM: Gracious of you. ;-) I sense you to be that way. It'll take time for intelligence & science to completely eradicate superstition; often believed by intelligent folks with their personal need to believe...

/quote]
Roger
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