Passing the test

[_AlmaBound]

Hey TD, I'm going to do some study about this - it occurred to me that Isaac, as the son of Abraham, had the "life" of Abraham within him, to be carried down into a multitude of descendants. Jesus also said that the "life" was in him, the son.

Both were offered up as sacrifices. What I'm wondering is how or why God would require the sacrifice of a living person.

I mean, I get the living creature sacrifice as a substitute, but a person? Any why Isaac?

Anyway, I'll get back to you, this is pretty interesting.

[_AlmaBound]

God has tested some people by commanding them to do disgusting and repugnant things to see if they are really willing to obey.

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Unfortunately, the followers never seem to see it this way. To them, it is always the other guy that is deceived.

Interesting point.

Being in the military, and having served in OIF, I think about the taking of life and its justification quite a bit, and whether or not I had been deceived when given my orders.

Killing is not just a concept when you are actually asked to do it.

Frankly, I'm not 100% convinced that there ever was such a person as Abraham in the first place. For all I know, the whole story is simply an allegorical account explaining the origins of a nation called Israel.

I do, however, enjoy talking about the implications of such things.

[_Sethbag]

In Mormon theology, there is this cosmic entity known as "Justice" which apparently requires human sacrifice to be satisfied, to let other human beings off the hook for such things as playing with themselves, saying the name of God too often, or in the wrong context, pickup up firewood on the wrong day of the week, shouting at one's parents, etc.

Why a human being has to be slaughtered in order to satisfy "justice" so that I can be off the hook for having masturbated as a teenager, I will never, ever comprehend. I'm sorry, but it just sounds too cultish, now that I think about it with a little distance. And it all made so much sense when I was a believer. "Well of course a perfect human being had to be slaughtered in order for Justice to be willing to let everyone else off the hook for the things they do that annoy the Creator of the Universe - DUH!"

[_karl61]

Issac's Angel was alert but poor Laban - his Angel was apparently sleeping on the job.

[_truth dancer]

Hiey AB,

Frankly, I'm not 100% convinced that there ever was such a person as Abraham in the first place. For all I know, the whole story is simply an allegorical account explaining the origins of a nation called Israel.

Just to be clear... I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. Not by a long stretch. :-) I consider it a mixture of fable, myth, poetry, and allegory, with some nice maxims and a bit of historical stuff thrown in!

So, no I don't believe God is testing anyone. (smile) I don't think God asks people to kill their children, abuse women, slaughter whole communities, cut off people's heads or engage in any other cruel behavior with which humans come up.

~td~

[_Pokatator]

I think the biggest difficulty with this whole idea is that history is full of crackpots that have said that God wanted them or their people to do various disgusting and repugnant things such as weird sexual practices and, to a lesser extent, child abuse and even murder.

Viewed in this light, the odds are very high that the followers of these religious leaders are really just being deceived. Unfortunately, the followers never seem to see it this way. To them, it is always the other guy that is deceived.

I think this describes Joseph Smith and his followers perfectly except for the murder part.

[_The Nehor]

Abraham was promised his posterity would be as the stars of heaven.

He was told this would come through Isaac.

He was told to kill Isaac before Isaac had children.

Assuming Abraham believed all of these promises then what did he think was going to happen?

[_Sethbag]

Abraham was promised his posterity would be as the stars of heaven.
He was told this would come through Isaac.
He was told to kill Isaac before Isaac had children.
Assuming Abraham believed all of these promises then what did he think was going to happen

Don't know, but with all of that crazy hodgepodge going through his mind, he was still willing to pick up the knife and slaughter his son.

And people today, in 2009, use this story as an example of the good and right way to think and live. We've got all kinds of schizophrenics and people hearing voices in their heads, saying it's God, or Angels, or whatever, killing people and whatnot, and the religious folks still hold up Abraham's willingness to slaughter his son as an example of the right way to ingratiate oneself with the Creator of the Universe.

This is your brain. This is your brain on religion.

[_Gazelam]

Moses Chp.5

5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaz,

See, to me it would be more likely that the God of the Universe would want people to demonstrate love and care opposed to the cruelty and horrific slaughtering of ones own child.

I mean, it seems God's test would be centered on how much a father loves his child, not if the father is willing to kill his child.

It seems like it would be SATAN who would want a father to kill his child and break the commandments, not God.

But then again, LDS doctrine had my mind totally in a knot.

~td~