Passing the test

[_wenglund]

As I mentioned on another thread, I find it amusing that some of those who failed the test of faith now presume to lecture the faithful about the test.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Some Schmo]

As I mentioned on another thread, I find it amusing that some of those who failed the test of faith now presume to lecture the faithful about the test.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That's not near as funny as believing there was actually a test in the first place.

LMAO

Thanks, -Some Schmo-

[_Paul Osborne]

if the Lehites did exist, how would this one violent act of Nephi have effected the culture of the Nephites?

Young Nephi had a long and difficult life ahead of him. Could it be that the slaying of Laban (attempted murderer) was part of his training for future war against his brethren? It’s doubtful he had ever seen a battle previous to this event. Had he gone to the promised land without some kind of training under his belt he might not have proven to be an effective leader in training the Nephites to defend themselves against their brethren.

Paul O

[_gramps]

if the Lehites did exist, how would this one violent act of Nephi have effected the culture of the Nephites?

Young Nephi had a long and difficult life ahead of him. Could it be that the slaying of Laban (attempted murderer) was part of his training for future war against his brethren? It’s doubtful he had ever seen a battle previous to this event. Had he gone to the promised land without some kind of training under his belt he might not have proven to be an effective leader in training the Nephites to defend themselves against their brethren.

Paul O

Interesting point. Also, not only the training under his belt would have given him an advantage, but to have Laban's sword itself under his belt, so to speak, must have been a real advantage for him in those early battles in the New World.

[_asbestosman]

Would you mind explaining yourself a little more?

I believe that we can distinguish God's voice from the voices inside our heads by experience and even by logic.

[_asbestosman]

Nobody had to kill anyone if Nephi and co. did need the plates. There are any number of arrangements God, using his Godlike powers, could've made to secure the plates without requesting anyone murder anyone.

Yes and no. I believe that God has all the power He needs, but do not believe His power to be unconstrained.

The way to read that story, if you take it to have literally happened, is that God wanted Laban murdered by Nephi because there was something valuable in that act in of itself.

I believe that there was indeed something valuable in the act itself. I do not know for certain what that is, but I Paul Osborne's suggestion may be part of it, or it may not.

And even that is problematic because the text gives a weak utilitarian justification for the act, ("It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.")

Why do you see that as weak? Later God destroys Sherem rather than let them continue to spread disbelief. Maybe this is part of Nephi's training in becoming like God. Sometimes you have to kill a man to protect a nation. For earthly nations, we may not care about belief, but for God's kingdom faith is vital.

[_wenglund]

That's not near as funny as believing there was actually a test in the first place. LMAO Thanks, -Some Schmo-

And here we have the blind man portending to tell the sighted that there is nothing to see--and thinking himself rather cleaver when doing so.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Inconceivable]

I find it amusing that some of those who failed the test of faith now presume to lecture the faithful about the test.

Wadester,

The Mormon God deals in absolutes except when it suits His purposes - you know, situational ethics. I for one refuse to believe the rat bastard of a man you worship resembles anything close to a kind, moral and loving God.

From your perspective, you've grown comfortable with round pegs fitting in square holes. From my vantage point, seeing guys like you attempting to force things to fit where they were never meant to go doesn't appear natural.

To fail pre-school. bummer.

not a pretty picture. nothing to laugh about.

[_wenglund]

Wadester,

The Mormon God deals in absolutes except when it suits His purposes - you know, situational ethics. I for one refuse to believe the rat bastard of a man you worship resembles anything close to a kind, moral and loving God.

From your perspective, you've grown comfortable with round pegs fitting in square holes. From my vantage point, seeing guys like you attempting to force things to fit where they were never meant to go doesn't appear natural.

To fail pre-school. bummer.

not a pretty picture. nothing to laugh about.

If it helps you to feel better about yourself to say so, then I am fine with that. It is just that the reasonable principle is thereby made no less enforce: those who fail the test of faith aren't in a position to lecture the faithful on the test.

Yet, that is what is going on here--thus causing these same good folks to fail the test of reasonableness as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_AlmaBound]

Nobody had to kill anyone if Nephi and co. did need the plates. There are any number of arrangements God, using his Godlike powers, could've made to secure the plates without requesting anyone murder anyone. The way to read that story, if you take it to have literally happened, is that God wanted Laban murdered by Nephi because there was something valuable in that act in of itself.

...
I read that as the author trying to excuse the narrative he is creating, but regardless, it ends up in a literal reading as a bit of superfluous sugar to help the medicine go down.

This is a fascinating post - thanks EA.

I wonder if your conclusion could be more closely intwined with your initial point, however.