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Certainly there are negative repercussions resulting from bishops impressing upon the minds of young men that masturbation is morally wrong and those who commit it are unfit for the service of God. The boy soon learns that temple worthiness requires him to not touch his private parts for pleasure and that such activity would ruin a temple recommend interview. He also knows that a strict bishop will bar him from the sacrament table. That’s got to add a lot of pressure on any young man that struggles to just want to come to church and participate.

It seems likely that these young men will grow up with the lasting impression that masturbation is an evil practice. That is, so it seems, what has been handled down from the ages and was also embraced by Mormonism. Consequently, there must be a lot of sexually dysfunctional men in the church who aren’t getting anything. Where is the joy in that? I thought that men are that they might have joy?

Paul O

Paul Osborne wrote:Certainly there are negative repercussions resulting from bishops impressing upon the minds of young men that masturbation is morally wrong and those who commit it are unfit for the service of God. The boy soon learns that temple worthiness requires him to not touch his private parts for pleasure and that such activity would ruin a temple recommend interview. He also knows that a strict bishop will bar him from the sacrament table. That’s got to add a lot of pressure on any young man that struggles to just want to come to church and participate.

In a major city in the Western half of our country, my daughter lived in a stake that covered the northern half of the city. Over half a million people lived in that stake. My daughter's ward covered the whole stake, because, besides the members who lived within the ward boundaries as written by the church, all of the families who had teenagers in them attended her ward. There were 4 deacons, 3 priests, and a couple of teachers. And that's all of the Aaronic priesthood living within that half a million people. I have no way of knowing if those young men ever masturbated, but the odds are that they did and that they continue to do so even today.

An extraordinary man oversees that ward. He is a man that thinks outside of the conventional box that most wards are trapped in. My SIL is National Guard, and his monthly drill is always on the first weekend of the month, so he never attends F&T meeting. So blessing his baby was a scheduling problem (incidently, the baby's middle name is Harmony). Realizing thi problem, the bishop suggested moving the blessing to a different Sunday to accomodate our SIL's schedule and our family. A small thing, yes, but indicative of his thinking.

We attended her ward when her baby was blessed (a huge event in that ward, made more huge by the influx of my family). Of the 4 deacons, none wore white shirts and only 3 of them had ties; one had hair to his waist. One of the priests had several tattoos and the other had a goatee. Yet the sacrament service that day was very reverent, very meaningful. Here were these young men who were a huge minority in their world, who would not have been allowed to serve us were we in my more conventional ward... these young men were there because they wanted to be, they were faithful in that which matters to God, and they performed their service swiftly and efficiently...kinda like they'd done it many times before.

They were examples of what matters to God. The color of a shirt doesn't matter to God; the length of hair does not matter to God. Facial hair and tattoos do not matter to God. The bishop had seen their hearts, and knew what mattered to God: they were in church, and they performed their priesthood duties well.

God bless those boys. And God continue to bless that bishop with discernment and compassion, for surely he made a difference in the lives of those young men, as they made a difference in the lives of us who were blessed to be in that ward that day. My very conventional husband was mildly critical; I was moved by the simple ceremony more than I have been for years.

Harmony, your story proves that change in outlook can, indeed, happen, within the Church.

Hopefully, more bishops like the one you describe will emerge. And there will be more "unconventional" members, like us, who will continue to encourage this type of thinking.

liz3564 wrote:Harmony, your story proves that change in outlook can, indeed, happen, within the Church.

Obviously she did not live in Utah.

Hopefully, more bishops like the one you describe will emerge. And there will be more "unconventional" members, like us, who will continue to encourage this type of thinking.

I hope, as the Baby Boomers age and their children start to take over the leadership responsibilities, that we see many changes in thinking... and maybe we'll even be lucky enough to have someone called to the Twelve who actually has lived in the real world!

liz3564 wrote:Harmony, your story proves that change in outlook can, indeed, happen, within the Church.

Hopefully, more bishops like the one you describe will emerge. And there will be more "unconventional" members, like us, who will continue to encourage this type of thinking.

Then they will be correlated out of existence. Just what, exactly, has the church ever reformed on? Blacks? You mean they recognized they made a mistake? No.

Any change in the church will come from the members who do not agree with this thing or that thing slowly implementing this thing or that thing, all the while hoping they don't get caught. Ask any NOM about where they fit in. Do they get callings that have any meaning? Can they serve in any leadership position? No.

If you think that the rising generation of members will be better, consider that any honest and thinking person with a computer will likely have left the church or turned NOM. The real world is going to select against reasonable people rising to leadership positions.

Until they take the Proclamation to the World off the wall, there is no hope.

liz3564 wrote:Harmony, your story proves that change in outlook can, indeed, happen, within the Church.

Hopefully, more bishops like the one you describe will emerge. And there will be more "unconventional" members, like us, who will continue to encourage this type of thinking.

Change will only happen at Salt Lake Inc. if the Geezers who run the show conclude it serves the Prime Directive (survival, growth, and power). If it is something in the interests of members, but does not serve the Prime Directive, then I wouldn't hold your breath. The needs/wants of members is an afterthought to the conservative, out-of-touch LDS power structure.

Gadianton Plumber wrote:If you think that the rising generation of members will be better, consider that any honest and thinking person with a computer will likely have left the church or turned NOM. The real world is going to select against reasonable people rising to leadership positions.

That is not fair, GP, and you know it.

Until they take the Proclamation to the World off the wall, there is no hope.

Now that I agree with. As long as women are seen as mothers only, there is no hope. And those of us with meaningful careers who work hard for the greater good, not just the good within our own homes, will continue to be marginalized. (although if I was extended the opportunity to be called to a leadership position, I'd turn it down flat. And I told my bishop that when he was first called. I simply will not put a large measure of what little free time I have to an organization that is as antiquated as it is futile (referring to RS here. I would never consider a position of any sort in Primary or Young Women's). I am, as someone once observed here, a hardboiled hard assed bitch (albeit a very polite hardboiled hard assed bitch in real life) with issues regarding power and authority.) I'd give lessons on the virtues of higher education to the young mothers; I'd tell the older sisters to go back to school and find a career that suits them; I'd have classes on resume writing, job interviewing, and dressing for success. And I'd have some Super Saturdays, so the women could get together and have an old fashioned craft making day for relaxation. And I'd turn a deaf ear to any complaints by the men.

Morrissey wrote:

liz3564 wrote:Harmony, your story proves that change in outlook can, indeed, happen, within the Church.

Hopefully, more bishops like the one you describe will emerge. And there will be more "unconventional" members, like us, who will continue to encourage this type of thinking.

Change will only happen at Salt Lake Inc. if the Geezers who run the show conclude it serves the Prime Directive (survival, growth, and power). If it is something in the interests of members, but does not serve the Prime Directive, then I wouldn't hold your breath. The needs/wants of members is an afterthought to the conservative, out-of-touch LDS power structure.

Assuming your analysis is correct....the temple rites were changed because it served the Prime Directive of the Church to do so. The survival, growth, and power of the Church is funded on members wanting to attend the temple. When there was enough disgruntlement that the endowment ceremony was too cult-like for members to feel comfortable, it became a concern. After all, why should I pay 10% of my income to have the ability to attend a service I don't really want to attend in the first place?

Using that logic, the same method ("voting with tithing dollars")could be applied to some of these other facets that we would like to see changed.

GP wrote:Ask any NOM about where they fit in. Do they get callings that have any meaning? Can they serve in any leadership position? No.

Harmony's story basically proved you wrong in this statement. That bishop sounds about as NOM as you can get.

Harmony wrote: I'd give lessons on the virtues of higher education to the young mothers; I'd tell the older sisters to go back to school and find a career that suits them; I'd have classes on resume writing, job interviewing, and dressing for success. And I'd have some Super Saturdays, so the women could get together and have an old fashioned craft making day for relaxation. And I'd turn a deaf ear to any complaints by the men.

You would feel right at home, in my ward, Harm. I've done all of those things here. LOL

harmony wrote:

Gadianton Plumber wrote:If you think that the rising generation of members will be better, consider that any honest and thinking person with a computer will likely have left the church or turned NOM. The real world is going to select against reasonable people rising to leadership positions.

That is not fair, GP, and you know it.

Until they take the Proclamation to the World off the wall, there is no hope.

Now that I agree with. As long as women are seen as mothers only, there is no hope. And those of us with meaningful careers who work hard for the greater good, not just the good within our own homes, will continue to be marginalized. (although if I was extended the opportunity to be called to a leadership position, I'd turn it down flat. And I told my bishop that when he was first called. I simply will not put a large measure of what little free time I have to an organization that is as antiquated as it is futile (referring to RS here. I would never consider a position of any sort in Primary or Young Women's). I am, as someone once observed here, a hardboiled hard assed bitch (albeit a very polite hardboiled hard assed bitch in real life) with issues regarding power and authority.) I'd give lessons on the virtues of higher education to the young mothers; I'd tell the older sisters to go back to school and find a career that suits them; I'd have classes on resume writing, job interviewing, and dressing for success. And I'd have some Super Saturdays, so the women could get together and have an old fashioned craft making day for relaxation. And I'd turn a deaf ear to any complaints by the men.

It is fair (the first part) as evidenced by you (in the second part). You made my case.