Elder Holland's talk at General Conference...

[Doctor Steuss]

My dear beloved apostates, you can watch it here if you dare!!!

Video On-Demand: October 09 Conference Talks

8:12 "In this their greatest and last hour of need, I ask you, would these men blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation, on a book and by implication on a church and a ministry they had fictitiously created out of whole cloth?"

That's Elder Holland's best argument? Okay....

Here's my response: If Joseph was a narcissistic fraud up until Carthage, it would be entirely consistent for him to continue being a narcissistic fraud. After all, he had been living on the edge his entire adult life, fixing his life/honor/search on a book and church fictitiously created out of whole cloth. Why would he change now? So basically, Holland's argument is begging the question he means to answer: was Joseph a fraud or not?



My father is a lawyer by training and he makes this same kind of argument whenever I put him on the ropes: basically that Joseph, Brigham Young, and all the Mormon pioneers wouldn't have suffered for their Church if it wasn't true. Geez man, can't you see, just because you achieve a powerful emotional state with the way you express your argument doesn't mean it's a solid argument. The jury might buy it, though.

[_MsJack]

Did anybody notice that the cadence of the talks was faster? I thought they may have sped up the the teleprompters, but then I realized I didn't know for sure that they used teleprompters. However, some of them seemed to turn their heads and look in a specific direction the same way for the same amount of time.

They use both teleprompters and speechwriters.

And he was correct about the Book of Mormon. No one has proven it false.

I have said that over and over again on the boards. And even though critics attempt to come up with an intelligient theory, it usually falls flat.

I think "no one has proven it false" is a silly claim to make. What does it mean to prove a religious text false? Has the Qur'an been "proven false"? The Book of Law of the Lord? The New World Translation of the Bible? The Analects of Confucius?

It's a nice soundbite for a religious inspirational talk (which is how I'm judging Holland's words), but as part of a logical case for the Book of Mormon, it's a horribly underwhelming point to make.

Is it possible to get a written copy of his talk. There were a lot of things I would like to raise. Many people are sincere in their conviction that the Book of Mormon is not history and a modern production.

The text version probably will not become available until this Saturday.

by the way, here is an article by a Baptist preacher who believes in the Book of Mormon. If that doesn't show that almost anybody can accept the Book of Mormon as scripture without buying the rest of the LDS church's claims, I don't know what does.

[_Inconceivable]

After the death of the Smiths, the Carthage survivors (Taylor, Woodruff & Richards) went on to support the lying Brigham Young and his Salt Lake church. Why are we to believe that the Smiths even acted as they did on the day we were liberated of them? It's the word of 3 practicing polygamists. Two of whom became impotent prophets, seers and revelators incapable of channelling as Smith had claimed. The only canonized "revelation" attributed to any of them was the raving of D&C 135:

3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 135:3)

This is a revelation?! Do the faithful even believe this after a bit of thought?

I think Holland gave some fence sitters a little push over the far edge this Sunday.

He doesn't like to be called out - sounds like someone twisted one of his buttons.

by the way, what's the difference between being disappointed and genuinely disappointed? Not actually being disappointed??

[_harmony]

I think Holland gave some fence sitters a little push over the far edge this Sunday.

He doesn't like to be called out - sounds like someone twisted one of his buttons.

Who?

[_Inconceivable]

I think Holland gave some fence sitters a little push over the far edge this Sunday.

He doesn't like to be called out - sounds like someone twisted one of his buttons.

Who?

Everyone with a legitimate unanswerable question - but particularly apologists and NOM's (those content with rearranging deck chairs as the ship sinks) Maybe particularly the NOM's. They're the unbelievers that remain secretly embedded within the church's ranks, right Harmony?

The excommunicated and resigned are beyond the tall walls. If Holland has read his Book of Mormon, he knows that it is the dissent from within that causes the most destruction.
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[_John Waite]

Elder Hollands little talk must have had something going for it. It sure has got hells bells ringing today. Not just here, but everywhere in anti-mormon land. Sounds like he must have siad something that hit home.

[_harmony]

Elder Hollands little talk must have had something going for it. It sure has got hells bells ringing today. Not just here, but everywhere in anti-mormon land. Sounds like he must have siad something that hit home.

Or said something even more remarkably obtuse than normal. And said it louder. At least the tone was different. We're so used to slumbering, it was fun to see someone a bit louder.

[_badseed]

Elder Hollands little talk must have had something going for it. It sure has got hells bells ringing today. Not just here, but everywhere in anti-mormon land. Sounds like he must have siad something that hit home.

Didn't see the talk but my TBM wife mentioned it. She even noted Holland's anger. Guess I better get back to Church. =)

Personally I think all the buzz on internet boards is because in the talk a GA finally acknowledged some of the issues in an official conference setting. From what I hear of Holland's tone and the fact that he spoke of Spaulding and Ethan Smith at all says that these issues are beginning to hit home inside the Church. They're are certainly having an impact. If not he never would have spoken about it.

[_harmony]

Everyone with a legitimate unanswerable question - but particularly apologists and NOM's (those content with rearranging deck chairs as the ship sinks) Maybe particularly the NOM's. They're the unbelievers that remain secretly embedded within the church's ranks, right Harmony?

Holy Sheep Shorts, Batman! You mean someone's actually listening???

The excommunicated and resigned are beyond the tall walls. If Holland has read his Book of Mormon, he knows that it is the dissent from within that causes the most destruction.

You mean you actually expect people ... especially our fearless leaders... to read the thing? Good grief.

[_The Nehor]

The excommunicated and resigned are beyond the tall walls. If Holland has read his Book of Mormon, he knows that it is the dissent from within that causes the most destruction.

Those within who dissent are those he was addressing....them and those who may be sheep needing some ammo and a .45 to take out any wolves in disguise.