DiscussMormonism.com

Dr. Shades wrote:

The Nehor wrote:I disrespectfully disagree.

On what grounds? Did he seal the destruction of a printing press with his blood, or didn't he?

No, he did not. This is reductive reasoning that attempts to put the blame on details and not the overall picture.

Joseph did destroy the press and that was one of the reasons he was in jail but do you think the mob that killed him was organized because he destroyed the some property? According to sources when interviewed by Governor Ford he was willing to be tried for the press destruction and pay for it if needed.

Joseph did not die over a printing press. Mobs don't break into a jail and kill someone over property damage. They struck because they personally despised him, the religion he created, the town he founded, and the people who followed him. They found it all threatening somehow and took action. He died for his religion.

Nightlion wrote:I find it fascinating that Mormons who loose their faith are compelled to defame Joseph Smith.

Simply put, reading the history of Joseph Smith is his defamation.

Smith was a scumbag. There are those of us that are willing to bring to light the truth of his actions - actions that speak louder than his words.

The Mormon church taught me to judge righteously. For this I bear some gratitude to them. It's just that the suits are in a dilemma. It didn't occur to them that this principle would backfire so profoundly.

Smith died for nobody. He didn't die for a book or a belief. He didn't die for his friends. He said himself that his life was of no worth to himself because it had become of no worth to them. He didn't pay for anyone's sins. However his death did liberate many from the threat of violence if only they had taken the route of his only legal wife Emma (and his children). They remained in Illinois and the "mob" left them alone.

Inconceivable wrote:

Nightlion wrote:I find it fascinating that Mormons who loose their faith are compelled to defame Joseph Smith.

Simply put, reading the history of Joseph Smith is his defamation.

Smith was a scumbag. There are those of us that are willing to bring to light the truth of his actions - actions that speak louder than his words.

The Mormon church taught me to judge righteously. For this I bear some gratitude to them. It's just that the suits are in a dilemma. It didn't occur to them that this principle would backfire so profoundly.

Smith died for nobody. He didn't die for a book or a belief. He didn't die for his friends. He said himself that his life was of no worth to himself because it had become of no worth to them. He didn't pay for anyone's sins. However his death did liberate many from the threat of violence if only they had taken the route of his only legal wife Emma (and his children). They remained in Illinois and the "mob" left them alone.

This is what happens when love waxes cold. At the exmo expo I sat down with a relative. He, like you, was now out. I was fond of my cousin, his mom, who had died young, so I wanted to probe and see what's up. Talking with him it became obvious that there was no love in him. It was a revelation to me. I was dispassionate and set aside my usual prejudice against atheists and he showed me how blank his heart was. He had absolutely no reason for losing faith. He simply had unplugged.

I think it is the calamity of our present culture that is causing people to simply unplug from love. Which also disconnects them from fidelity to truth. Interesting beyond measure is why they then turn and seek to devour, faith, hope, charity, love, truth.

Dr. Shades wrote:

Nightlion wrote:If you really want to pixelate his death why not say he died for going to the window instead of ducking under the bed? He died saving the lives of his friends.

No, he didn't die saving the lives of his friends. He died abandoning his friends while trying to save his own skin.

I find it fascinating that Mormons who loose their faith are compelled to defame Joseph Smith.

Nobody's trying to defame Joseph Smith. We're just finally able to take an objective look at the facts.

This is what happens when love waxes cold. At the exmo expo I sat down with a relative. He, like you, was now out. I was fond of my cousin, his mom, who had died young, so I wanted to probe and see what's up. Talking with him it became obvious that there was no love in him. It was a revelation to me. I was dispassionate and set aside my usual prejudice against atheists and he showed me how blank his heart was. He had absolutely no reason for losing faith. He simply had unplugged.

I think it is the calamity of our present culture that is causing people to simply unplug from love. Which also disconnects them from fidelity to truth. Interesting beyond measure is why they then turn and seek to devour, faith, hope, charity, love, truth.

What is said to Inconceivable goes for you too Shades.

Joseph did not die trying to save his friends? Your credibility is shot.
Your heart is blank. What is going on in the world? I wont say.

Nightlion wrote:..Talking with him it became obvious that there was no love in him. It was a revelation to me. ..he showed me how blank his heart was. He had absolutely no reason for losing faith. He simply had unplugged.

I think it is the calamity of our present culture that is causing people to simply unplug from love. Which also disconnects them from fidelity to truth. Interesting beyond measure is why they then turn and seek to devour, faith, hope, charity, love, truth.

No love unplug here, Night Lion. The concepts you mention above are yet virtuous principles that I consciously express each day. It's what brings peace and balance to my life.

Call me a liar or search for a more viable conclusion. I suspect it won't fit into your nearsighted paradigm though.

good luck.

Remember, you can still love someone and trememdously hate what they may do. Smith fits this description perfectly.

The Nehor wrote:Mobs don't break into a jail and kill someone over property damage.

No, but they did over the subversion of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

Nightlion wrote:Interesting beyond measure is why they then turn and seek to devour, faith, hope, charity, love, truth.

No one seeks to devour faith, hope, charity, love, and truth. Most of us simply seek to devour falsehood, error, and deception.

Joseph did not die trying to save his friends? Your credibility is shot. Your heart is blank. What is going on in the world? I wont say.

If Joseph's intent was to try to save his friends, he would've walked toward the door, not the window.

Since he walked toward the window, he was abandoning his friends to their fate in a futile attempt to save his own skin.

Inc wrote:However his death did liberate many from the threat of violence if only they had taken the route of his only legal wife Emma (and his children). They remained in Illinois and the "mob" left them alone.

Interesting point, Inc.

It is rather interesting that the mob didn't choose to go after Emma, or even Joseph's son, for that matter.

I should know my church history better than this, but can anyone tell me why it is that they didn't?

Why didn't the residents of Nauvoo drive Emma and the rest of Joseph Smith's family out? You would think that they would want his widow gone, just on principle.

liz3564 wrote:Why didn't the residents of Nauvoo drive Emma and the rest of Joseph Smith's family out? You would think that they would want his widow gone, just on principle.

Most of the residents of Nauvoo were Mormons, so driving Emma and the rest of Joseph's family probably didn't occur to them.

Dr. Shades wrote:

liz3564 wrote:Why didn't the residents of Nauvoo drive Emma and the rest of Joseph Smith's family out? You would think that they would want his widow gone, just on principle.

Most of the residents of Nauvoo were Mormons, so driving Emma and the rest of Joseph's family probably didn't occur to them.

OK, Shades. Do you want to discuss or criticize? I admitted that I was not up on this subject, and actually wanted some feedback. If you really didn't understand my question, then I apologize and will attempt to word it with more clarity.

The Saints were motivated to move out of Illinois. Mormon urban legend has it that the Saints were driven out. They really had no choice but to leave. My question is...if this is true....why didn't these mob members, and residents of Illinois who were hostile to the Mormons, have a problem with Emma Smith, the widow of Joseph, the founder of the Mormon Church, and the cause of all of this anger, remaining in Illinois? Not only that, but Lucy Smith, Joseph's mother, also remained behind. Why were they not driven out?

Was Joseph told that if he denied his testimony that he would be freed? If not, then he did not seal his testimony with his blood.

I think this was a very complex situation, and certainly LDS did behave in ways that were offensive and plain rude to their neighbors. In addition, they were experimenting with a marital system that the host society found problematic. There were probably reasons that the host society felt threatened by the Mormon community. Unfortunately, it is part of the tribal instinct to lash out violent against the "others" who make one feel threatened, so in that fashion, religious beliefs were a trigger - but only because it make LDS act strange and in ways the host society perceived as threatening. There were lots of weird religions in that time period sprouting up and most of them did not meet with violence.

These comments should not be construed to mean that the violence enacted against Joseph was justified - of course it was not.