I quit the Church!!!

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_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Nevo wrote:No, I don't think so. As far as I know, Catholicism hasn't disavowed its truth claims.

In Nostra Aetate we read:

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in [other] religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ 'the way, the truth, and the life' (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself."

I think this statement is perfectly appropriate. One can find similar statements from LDS Church leaders. One can be charitable and liberal-minded without rushing headlong into relativism.



The LDS Church can retain its truth claims yet be more tolerant and open to other views. I know it has taken the Catholic Church a long time to allow members to hold more diverse views and retain membership but there is no such thing in the LDS Church. Just look at how active members rant about Harry Reid. Can one openly discuss issues in the LDS Church that may disagree with top leadership and stay in good standing? I don't think so. Can they discuss openly in Church setting controversial historical issues and not be ostracized and possibly even disciplined? Doubtful. I live and work with many Catholics of varying flavors and I can tell you the LDS Church has no such culture that would tolerate such diversity.
_Nevo
_Emeritus
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:05 pm

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _Nevo »

Ray A wrote:So when is Mormonism going to "get real" and allow more leeway to its members instead of instigating witch hunts for members and scholars who do not accept Book of Mormon historicity?

I'm not aware of any such "witch hunts." As one who is somewhat ambivalent on the historicity issue I don't feel particularly threatened on that account.

I presume you are familiar with Jeffrey Holland's interview with Helen Whitney:

Jeffrey R. Holland: There are plenty of people who question the historicity of the Book of Mormon, and they are firmly in this church — firmly, in their mind, in this church — and the church isn't going to take action against that. [The church] probably will be genuinely disappointed, but there isn't going to be action against that, not until it starts to be advocacy: "Not only do I disbelieve in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, I want you to disbelieve." At that point, we're going to have a conversation. A little of that is more tolerated than I think a lot of people think it should be. But I think we want to be tolerant any way we can. ... "Patient" maybe is a better word than "tolerant." We want to be patient and charitable to the extent that we can, but there is a degree beyond which we can't go.

I think this is quite reasonable. As one poster noted on BCC, Elder Holland's denunciation of Book of Mormon detractors in his recent conference talk "focused explicitly on divinity, not historicity per se. The fiery arrows directed at the fraud-criers sailed passed the inspired fiction crowd unscathed."

I think it's a case of "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity."
_Ray A

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _Ray A »

Nevo wrote:As one poster noted on BCC, Elder Holland's denunciation of Book of Mormon detractors in his recent conference talk "focused explicitly on divinity, not historicity per se. The fiery arrows directed at the fraud-criers sailed passed the inspired fiction crowd unscathed."


I think you're mistaken on that point, Nevo, and here's why. David Wright considered the Book of Mormon to be "inspired but not history". I have been unable to find this statement, but I'm positive I read it in hardcopy. The reason, I believe, Wright has now become silent on this is because of what he experienced at the hands of ecclesiastical "witch-hunters". He was at least willing to concede that it could be "inspired". When I sent an email to Wright in 2000, I specifically asked him about this statement, and he did not respond to my question, though he did reply. He didn't deny it, but he chose not to clarify it. He didn't reply saying that the Book of Mormon was a "fraud". And to my knowledge, has never said such.

Whatever the case may be now, it was not so when Wright was tried for his membership. The "inspired but not history" view was simply not good enough. And he was excommunicated for not accepting a literal, historical view, and "promoting" a non-historical view. Really, how many members read Sunstone or Dialogue? His trial was instigated by upper-echelon GAs, one of whom was Boyd K. Packer, who wanted to purge "intellectuals". Quinn suffered the same fate, yet to the best of my knowledge he still considers Joseph Smith to have been a "prophet like Moses".

Nevo wrote:I think it's a case of "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity."


There may have to be some discussion about what "essentials" are. And I think you may see my point after having read what I wrote.
_Nevo
_Emeritus
Posts: 1500
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Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _Nevo »

Ray A wrote:I think you're mistaken on that point, Nevo, and here's why. David Wright considered the Book of Mormon to be "inspired but not history". . .

I thought you might bring up Wright's case. But Wright was disciplined back in Ezra Taft Benson's administration — quite some time ago. You imply that "witch hunts" are the norm now, and I just don't see any evidence for this. Today, even the likes of Tom Murphy are not excommunicated.

Also, by 1993, Wright was advocating something close to a non-inspired Book of Mormon. Nowhere in his New Approaches essay does he aver that the Book of Mormon is "inspired." Rather, he simply notes that attributing the book to Joseph Smith doesn't require rejecting the work "as religiously relevant and significant." Wright seems to think the Book of Mormon has "religious value" but doesn't go any farther than that. He reads it as a text reflecting Joseph Smith's "internal struggles and spiritual challenges in the context of his social and religious environment." Even so, things might have turned out differently had Wright's Sunstone and New Approaches essays appeared a decade later.

The current darling of Mormon Studies, Terryl Givens (who is, or was recently, a bishop), states matter-of-factly in his latest work on the Book of Mormon that "it is undeniably the case that folk magic, slippery treasures, and emotionally extravagant reactions to conversion all make their appearance in the Book of Mormon and in the popular culture of Joseph Smith's day." After reviewing the evidences for an ancient origin, he concludes: "None of these items, of course, taken singly, constitutes decisive proof that the Book of Mormon is an ancient text. Even their cumulative weight is counterbalanced by what appear to be striking intrusions into the Book of Mormon text of anachronisms, nineteenth-century parallels, and elements that appear to many scholars to be historically implausible and inconsistent with what is known about ancient American cultures" (see Terryl L. Givens, The Book of Mormon: A Very Short Introduction [New York: Oxford University Press, 2009], 115, 121-22).

This is a remarkably candid and even-handed public statement from a Mormon scholar, and I think it owes something to the greater leeway given to scholars over the past decade and a half.
_Ray A

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _Ray A »

Delete.

I take back all of the positive things I said about Mormons.
Last edited by _Ray A on Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _why me »

harmony wrote:
When the Brethren are talking, you can just about make bank that it's men's worldview, not God's. Only rare exceptions like Pres Hinckley's talk on Tolerance or the Ensign article on Greed resonate with God's voice over the pride of the authors. The rest of it? Men. *sigh*

Well, I don't know. Heavenly Father is a man and as spoken quite often through men...just look at the Bible. Was Paul speaking as a man or was he speaking for god? And Jesus was a man. The Bible is full of male voices acting in the name of Jesus or of god. You just need to get used to it. Your issue is with god and not with the brethern.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Ray A

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _Ray A »

why me wrote:Well, I don't know. Heavenly Father is a man and as spoken quite often through men...just look at the Bible. Was Paul speaking as a man or was he speaking for god? And Jesus was a man. The Bible is full of male voices acting in the name of Jesus or of god. You just need to get used to it. Your issue is with god and not with the brethern.


One day you're going to wake up and wonder why in hell you ever defended Mormons.

In the meantime - happy delusions.
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _why me »

Ray A wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:Everyone has to find their own path and way in life Ray. What works for some does not work for others. Just because something did not work for you does not mean it won't work for someone else.


And if there were more Mormons like you it would be a positive for the Church. If ever I feel a "tug" to Mormonism (a liberal one), it's always because of level-headed Mormons like yourself. When you criticise something or someone, it means something (to me, anyway) because you've developed a reputation for fair-mindedness and good judgement. You must have been a superb bishop.

You are showing your own intolerance as an exmo when you claim that there is no middle way. Former TBMs who may have been most judgemental of less actives or inactives usually keep the same deameanor as an exmo and show intolerance toward inactive people who defend the lds church.

Over on the postmorg, they are the most judgemental group you ever would want to meet. I know that they gave you hugs over there but they are very judgemental as exmormons are on their board.

The mantra that there is no middle way is just wishful thinking since many could not find their own middle way as members. But it does exist. There are many inactives or semiactives that are not hostile against the lds church and would defend it, if they were given the chance.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Polygamy-Porter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8091
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:07 am

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

why me wrote:The mantra that there is no middle way is just wishful thinking since many could not find their own middle way as members. But it does exist. There are many inactives or semiactives that are not hostile against the lds church and would defend it, if they were given the chance.

Fine Walmart, here is your chance.

Tell us YOUR middle ground of Mormonism.

Do you attend church services AT ALL?
Pay ANY TITHES?
Attend temple?
Do home teaching?
Have home teachers over?
Married? In the temple?
Wear gaments?
How many years ago did you do any of the above?

Do you drink alcohol?
Smoke?
Drink coffee or tea?
View porn?
Masturbate?

Please be candid and honest. It's not like any one on these boards knows you in real life.
New name: Boaz
The most viewed "ignored" poster in Shady Acres® !
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: I quit the Church!!!

Post by _why me »

Tchild wrote:
Polygamy Porter represents a stage that one experiences on the path out of Mormonism and as such, his viewpoint is perfect for a discussion board exploring all things Mormon (or ex-mormon).

Yes MG, PP calls a spade a spade and that is why it is uncomfortable for you and others. As for being "immature"? Based on whose criteria of what is the appropriate level of maturity?

That is what leaving Mormonism means; freedom from its confining shackles. It won't always be "mature", but it will be real and real is what was rarely found in Mormonism.

This is a load of hogwash to be sure. I don't think that any member of the lds church on this board can have a discussion with PP. It is quite impossible. Freedom does not equate with name calling and desrespect. There are rules of conventions which if broken, creates a barbaric atmosphere of disrespect, mocking and bashing of individuals. And if that is what it means to be an exmo, well, I hope that I am never an exmo.

And by the way, one can leave Mormonism and still keep their humanity. Life and law does create a confining atmosphere. Without contraints, chaos would reign.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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