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I'm not sure that they can either. Bill Hamblin, for example, has argued strenuously that the view that Joseph Smith wrote "inspired" pseudepigraphy is untenable for the reason that there were either gold plates and an angel or there weren't. And if there weren't any plates or an angel, then Joseph Smith was a fraud (either lying or deluded)—not a prophet (since God wouldn't be a party to fraud).

Why wouldn't God be party to a fraud?

Basically, it seems Judeo-Christian morality boils down to: whatever God commands is right, even if it contradicts his own commandments. So God can tell Nephi to kill a man who was so drunk he was literally helpless to resist and it's good and moral, but God wouldn't be party to a fraud? Is fraud worse than murder????

Paul thanx for the trip down memory lane. I'm beyond glad we are both out and hoping more Sam's and the like get out, the sooner the better.

_Paul Osborne wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:11 pm

Runtu wrote:Paul,

You know I have long respected you for your honest and sensible approach to the Book of Abraham and for your kindness and compassion, so I am quite sure that your decision has come from the heart. As others have said, leaving isn't easy, and it can be quite painful and full of sorrows, but I support your decision, as it's yours alone to make.

Whatever you do, follow the truth. It really does make you free.

John

Thanks, that means a lot to me. Indeed, I gave it my best in defending the Book of Abraham out of sheer testimony and did it in the most honest way I could. I knew something was dreadfully wrong with Hugh Nibley's approach and that the General Authorities were money loving cowards so I figured I'd try and light a fire and hoped others would run with it. But, to my disappointment, it really is a lost cause. I just thank God that I refused to brainwash myself endlessly and admit the truth.

Kerry Shirts, are you going to do the right thing?! I wonder if Kerry really has the balls to face up and admit the truth. Time will tell.

Paul O

Apparently, Kerry, stepped up to the plate!

I'm reading this crazy thread.

This IS a crazy thread, and yes Kerry Shirts is sorta just hangin in there doin his thang, following the evidence ya know.....

_Polygamy-Porter wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:28 am

Buying gentile undies is a right of passage for ex-Mormons.

When the Fruits return to the Loom.

Moksha wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:27 am

_Polygamy-Porter wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:28 am

Buying gentile undies is a right of passage for ex-Mormons.

When the Fruits return to the Loom.

_Paul Osborne wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:25 pm

The time has come, alas! My apostasy . . . .

I no longer pledge my obedience or faithfulness to the brethren of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or to any church for that matter. Screw them all!

I no longer believe that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, seer, or revelator although I think he is a nice guy. I think the LDS church is run like a business and by white collar men who love power, money, and position. Screw them.

I have no regrets for living Mormonism and value my experience in the church as an important part of my life's mission on this earth. It was a great ride while it lasted. But the ride is over.

I do however retain my belief in God and Jesus Christ. I feel like I can breath now. There really is air outside of Mormonism wherein life does exist. It feels pretty good, folks. I'm in the process of being debrainwashed and am coming along OK. However, with all that said, there is a possibility I could go back to the Church but that would require the absence of faith and the church proving what it claims to be. I doubt that will happen because the Church doesn't have a good track record of proving anything.

Thoughts? I don't know if I'll comment much. This is a difficult moment for me. I'm sure you all understand.

Paul O

Thanks for bringing this piece of history back. I'm sorry that I don't feel I can spare the time to read through the next twenty pages, with comments from a lot of people I've never known, and all. A condensed version would be interesting.

When I was following Ex-Scientology, a popular metaphor was "peeling the onion". The idea was that when people first left Scientology, they usually decided that the Church of Scientology had become corrupt but that L. Ron Hubbard was still a great guy and his "tech" still had a lot of value. Gradually, though, their skepticism would work further inwards. For a while some of the "tech" was just silly and Hubbard had flaws, but some was good and Hubbard had some great ideas. Slowly the few remaining babies in the bathwater turned out to be just lumps of dirt, until they finally accepted the fact that the "tech" was all stupid—the only "workable" things in it were simple things that had been around long before Scientology—and Hubbard was just a glib charlatan who lied about everything.

I wonder how far that metaphor applies to Mormonism, which doesn't pretend to be an entirely new revelation like Scientology, but instead tries to hijack Christianity and Judaism. Does Jesus slowly shift from being the guy who was betrayed again by Joseph Smith into just an earlier Joseph Smith? Does ancient Palestine come to seem just like Utah? Or is it more a matter of the ancient world fading into unknown ancient stuff, that loses relevance to the modern world when Smith's Restoration is revealed as a scam?

I don't mean to pry into your own private views as an individual, but just to ask what might be the appropriate short public bio for a Mormon apologist turned Mormon critic.

I'd ask the same question to Philo Sofee, for the same reasons.

I was never an apologist, but I was a true believer. I’m not sure that my conclusion that the LDS Church was not what it purports to be had any impact on my stance toward Jesus. I don’t recall ever equating the two in any way.

Certainly, the experience of learning that fundamental things I “knew” to be true led me to question other things I thought I knew. And that likely affected my willingness to question what I thought I knew about Jesus.

My evolution from non-denominational Christian to agnostic believer to agnostic atheist took place over decades and felt like a much different process than the transition from TBM to non-denominational Christian. There was much less personal trauma. I didn’t feel the profound sense of disorientation that I experienced when I left Mormonism.

Physics Guy wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:35 pm

I don't mean to pry into your own private views as an individual, but just to ask what might be the appropriate short public bio for a Mormon apologist turned Mormon critic.

I'd ask the same question to Philo Sofee, for the same reasons.

I honestly don't know the answer to that question at this time. This thread certainly provides some insight into my transition of leaving the Church and taking off the temple garments is a big factor in making that transition a reality. Here is a clip from my resignation letter I sent to the Church back in 2012. My membership was thereafter cancelled a few months later.

It upsets me that the LDS Church continues to mock the ancient Egyptian religion by publishing the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 wherein Joseph Smith mistakenly called a god of Egypt a slave, presumably because Anubis is black. Modern Egyptology has proven that Joseph Smith’s translations are false. There is no king’s name written in the writing and the name Shulem is not contained in the Egyptian hieroglyphic text as Joseph Smith claimed. Joseph Smith also made up the Book of Mormon which is nothing but a book of fiction.