DiscussMormonism.com

mentalgymnast wrote:

Only from your POV and other critics. Members of the church are doing just fine. The church is doing just fine. The problems are in your head.

Regards,
MG

I don't think so. Members themselves may be oblivious and happy (or acting that way), but the leadership has taken notice of the accessibility of historical facts and are doing what they can to mitigate the damage. Nothing about the church, its claims or history is a "problem" for critics or disbelievers, it is a problem for leadership trying to find and retain converts and members.

How is the fact that Joseph Smith was a moneydigger, a polygamist, a polyandrist or a number of other frauds, anybody's problem except the church itself?

Baffling.

mentalgymnast wrote:

zzyzx wrote:"On the whole I think that members are busily engaged in living their religion rather than looking for reasons to pick it apart."

This attitude is one of the major problems with LDS, Inc. and its members.

Only from your POV and other critics. Members of the church are doing just fine. The church is doing just fine. The problems are in your head.

Regards,
MG

If people truly think that and feel no need to address issues they come across (and yes they are there) then great. I'm glad that works for them. My beef is when people don't see it like you do, have questions and want to look deeper but are discouraged by the leadership from researching and questioning.

I don't expect the Church to advertise all of it's faults. No organization will or should be expected to do that. I do however have serious issues with LDS leadership stifling of individual research and investigation into the messier issues surrounding Mormonism. Many members have questions but have been so conditioned to not trust any source outside of correlation (and GA books) that they do not dare to look very far. They have been taught to not trust their own ability to identify truth. It must be left up to the Church.

I find this ironic coming from the religion that supposedly began from the First Vision and that encourages investigators to question their beliefs in order to convert in the first place.

Honestly, I think most people just want to know enough to get by in life.

For example, I run a business that deals with some cinema/home theater technology. 99% of my employees know enough to do a great job, but have no interest in gaining a deeper knowledge or understanding of what they're working on (or why they do something a certain way etc.) I make opportunities available to them to learn more (classes, training, seminars), but they just don't care.

Likewise, the Church used to sponsor Friday and Saturday evening "Know your Religion" classes where members could make an additional effort to learn stuff outside their traditional Church meetings, but these were canceled (from what I understand) for lack of interest. Certainly, these weren't classes on Joseph Smith's polygamy or the Kinderhook Plates, but it probably wouldn't have made much difference.

badseed wrote: They have been taught to not trust their own ability to identify truth. It must be left up to the Church.

Amen! When was the last talk we had from the Brethren encouraging the members to develop their own personal relationship with God so they would be able to trust their own personal inspiration? Our leaders want to spoon feed us the gospel according to them, not the gospel according to Jesus Christ. One leads to bondage, the other to freedom.

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"Members of the church are doing just fine. The church is doing just fine. The problems are in your head."

Since I am a member of the Church and currently hold a calling... apparently I am the fly in your soup. I watch and I keep the records. I listen to what goes on in various meetings and have a good chance to listen to what is said in the foyer during and after meetings. A lot of members want more than they are getting. They are afraid to ask questions because the manuals and leadership actively discourage this.

Once again, if you cannot ask and have a serious and knowledgeable discussion in Priesthood and Sunday School... where do you have it? We have a High Counselor in our Northern Utah Stake who doesn't believe Joseph Smith ever practiced Polygam. That it is a lie to smear his reputation. He doesn't believe the Church ever taught that 'The Negro' was cursed. How do you have an intelligent discussion or even ask a question of someone that damn stupid? Blinders is not the description of this idiot as he willfully ignores anything that does not fit into his belief even as Church history reads different than what he is saying from the front of the meeting to a congregation.

How do you deal with Stake and Ward leaders who say 'ask Salt Lake' when you have questions and Salt Lake responds with 'ask your Bishop and Stake President. 'Whose on First' makes more sense,

zzyzx wrote:How do you deal with Stake and Ward leaders who say 'ask Salt Lake' when you have questions and Salt Lake responds with 'ask your Bishop and Stake President. 'Whose on First' makes more sense,

At least they don't say "ask FARMS"... yet.

badseed wrote:

I don't expect the Church to advertise all of it's faults. No organization will or should be expected to do that. I do however have serious issues with LDS leadership stifling of individual research and investigation into the messier issues surrounding Mormonism. Many members have questions but have been so conditioned to not trust any source outside of correlation (and GA books) that they do not dare to look very far. They have been taught to not trust their own ability to identify truth. It must be left up to the Church.

I find this ironic coming from the religion that supposedly began from the First Vision and that encourages investigators to question their beliefs in order to convert in the first place.

This isn't true. I've studied and read to my heart's content, or discontent at times, since the early nineties. I have never been stifled. I have not been conditioned. I have not let correlation get in the way of my studies. Where are you getting this idea that "the church" does what it doesn't do? You're not the first one to make this accusation and probably not the last. I've heard it over and over again and it gets a bit old.

Regards,
MG

zzyzx wrote:"Members of the church are doing just fine. The church is doing just fine. The problems are in your head."

We have a High Counselor in our Northern Utah Stake who doesn't believe Joseph Smith ever practiced Polygam. That it is a lie to smear his reputation. He doesn't believe the Church ever taught that 'The Negro' was cursed. How do you have an intelligent discussion or even ask a question of someone that damn stupid?

You don't. So what's the big deal?

Regards,
MG