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My wife and I got home from Church one day over four years ago, vowing, for the millionth time it seemed like, we would not keep trying. Last week, a family from the ward, whom we had known for a good decade or so, invited us, out of the blue to their cabin for the weekend. We accepted knowing we'd likely be treated as a project of sorts. It turned out after the invite two other faithful families were invited, which was a bit of a blindside for me. Our kids are friends with all of their kids, so it was unavoidable for us anyway. We took up our lamps trimmed with oil and ventured. We had a fine time and the kids really had a great time.

THat's it. That's my story.

No, I chimed in to say, the owners of the land were the family of one of the brethren on our little adventure. He reported that the land adjacent to them was owned by none other than this Milton guy. He approached them proposing to buy a fairly large open area they owned in order to build his airstrip, they said. They said since he purchased it he's been making wild and frenetic actions. They've seen him digging random holes with his tractor toys and when they talked to him, he said he was just having fun. He had, they said, just bought a new one and wanted to dig stuff up. He cleared out a bunch of trees, apparently for no reason. Weird things like that. Anyway, adding this little anecdote to the story, I figure he's kind of an eccentric whose all about himself.

dastardly stem wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:59 pm

They've seen him digging random holes with his tractor toys and when they talked to him, he said he was just having fun. He had, they said, just bought a new one and wanted to dig stuff up. He cleared out a bunch of trees, apparently for no reason. Weird things like that.

Perhaps burying plates or gold doubloons?

IHAQ wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:03 am

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:58 pm

Milton deserves every punishment he receives. He's a crook and a lying liar.

But it does not follow that the church bears any fiscal responsibility nor that church finances or tithing funds should even enter the discussion. Why make that connection? Because Milton was "a billionaire" and big money is involved? Where does that line get drawn? Does every criminal act automatically indict that individual's church?

The point being that the Church claims to not want donations that are the proceeds of illicit activity. But, as has been seen recently, will only return donations that are the proceeds of illicit activity when pursued by the victims. My question is shouldn't the Church return any/all donations received from Brother Milton because they cannot be sure they are untainted? Will the Church hold onto this funds whilst the victims of the alleged fraud sustain losses? It's a question about the institutional morality of the Church when it comes to donations. Does the Church bear no moral duty to return donations if they have come at the expense of victims?

I get it, however unless there is a specific aggrieved party to whom a settlement is owed, why should the church care about criminals? What is their option, pay the money back to Milton?

Suppose you all remember the old saying that the church would give back tithing paid for by lottery winnings. Is that true or just an old chestnut?

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:21 am

I get it, however unless there is a specific aggrieved party to whom a settlement is owed, why should the church care about criminals?

I suppose it's a question of morals. Is the Church prepared to accept tithing from members and non members regardless of how their "increase" was achieved? Is the Church prepared to take tithing from, say, a prostitue? Or a baker who makes cakes for gay weddings? Or a whiskey distiller? Has the Church drawn a line on this, or is it happy to swell the hoarded hundreds of millions with funds from any source unless or until legally compelled to give it back? I don't know the answer. But I would expect the Church to practice what it preaches, particularly when to comes to behaving morally - and yes, I know the horse has long since bolted on that topic.

IHAQ wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:42 am

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:21 am

I get it, however unless there is a specific aggrieved party to whom a settlement is owed, why should the church care about criminals?

I suppose it's a question of morals. Is the Church prepared to accept tithing from members and non members regardless of how their "increase" was achieved? Is the Church prepared to take tithing from, say, a prostitue? Or a baker who makes cakes for gay weddings? Or a whiskey distiller? Has the Church drawn a line on this, or is it happy to swell the hoarded hundreds of millions with funds from any source unless or until legally compelled to give it back? I don't know the answer. But I would expect the Church to practice what it preaches, particularly when to comes to behaving morally - and yes, I know the horse has long since bolted on that topic.

I think you are right that a bright line should be drawn somewhere. However, my question is about what to do with money donated by a convicted criminal? Who would the money be returned to? The criminal?

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:25 pm

I think you are right that a bright line should be drawn somewhere. However, my question is about what to do with money donated by a convicted criminal? Who would the money be returned to? The criminal?

In a recent case the church has settled out of court and agreed to reimburse a value to the victims of a criminal via the attorney that was pursuing the case. I thing those big cases are clear cut. The problem lies in the weeds of all the much smaller donations received as a result of dubious activities by the donor.