The Challenge

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Oh well -- I can walk away from it all.
You can't.
Too bad about that, eh?

UD

Given the history of WhyMe's membership, I'd say is has all but walked away from it.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
You would make a wonderful Joseph Smirh.
...

Joseph Smirf?
Did he write the Book of Mormon?

Uncle "Blessed to open the last dispensation" Dale

[_mentalgymnast]

Hey MG... :-)

It seems incredulous to me that the God of the entire universe (you know, the one who made it), couldn't figure out a way to restore his truth regardless of a particular person.

It may well be that he did just that. Joseph Smith had his flaws and his strengths. So did his second lieutenant, Sidney Rigdon. I think this may very well support your assertion. God was/is able to restore his truth through imperfect, yet in many ways brilliant and yes, even spiritually strong/capable individuals.

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, I am well pleased with your offering and acknowledgments, which you have made; for unto this end have I raised you up, that I might show forth my wisdom through the weak things of the earth." (D&C 124:1.)

Regards,
MG

[_Uncle Dale]

...had his flaws and his strengths. So did his second lieutenant,
Sidney Rigdon.
...

CFR


UD

[_Trevor]

I have an unbiased understanding of him as a human being.

You really think so, whyme? With a straight face and everything?

I mean, does anyone here or anywhere have a truly unbiased view of anything?

[_mentalgymnast]

... think what this church would look like today if the prophet was actually a honorable, honest man or woman filled with integrity and decency, who actually lived by the golden rule?

Think what the one and only church would look like if the Book of Mormon myth actually resembled some sort of reality? For example, what if the Book of Mormon had filled within its pages information that actually enlightened our understanding of the human race rather than conflicted with it at every turn. What if it taught us new knowledge and information, and little by little anthropologists and historians confirmed its message and story as true and accurate, rather than apologists having to twist and turn its words and meaning into all sorts of gibberish in order to "expand the paradigm"?

What if the prophet chosen by God to restore the one and only full truth of God upon the earth was a remarkable, enlightened, honest, decent, respectable, truly amazing man who the world could look up to? What might the church look like then?

My point is, MG, the past is the past and if anything changed nothing would be as it is... so what? I don't see how this is supportive of the notion that the LDS church is directed by God or of Divine origin any more than anything turning out as it has throughout history.

~td~

You are bringing in your own set of hypotheticals. As I've mentioned, the church is what it is today and is doing quite well in accomplishing its three fold mission. Whether or not your hypotheticals would have resulted in the same success quotient is an unknown quantity. But I guess you can spout off your "what ifs" till the sun goes down and the cows come home if you want <g>.

Regards,
MG

[_Trevor]

But I guess you can spout off your "what ifs" till the sun goes down and the cows come home if you want <g>.

Regards,
MG

As if the whole basis of your opening post wasn't pointless speculation?

[Tator]

run for president, builder of cities and communities, a leader, a speaker, an organizer, a preacher, a father, a husband, a wrestler, a son, a loyal brother, a builder of buildings and temples etc.

Don't forget he married at least 33 women during his short life, as well. And most of those marriages occurred in clusters, when he was also busily engaged in other grandiose activities, like having himself crowned king.

In my experience, people who are experiencing mania often are extremely busy and productive, until they crash, of course.


(whoops!) MG:

As I've mentioned, the church is what it is today and is doing quite well in accomplishing its three fold mission.

Other churches are also doing quite well in accomplishing their missions. Does that mean anything about their truthfulness?

[_mentalgymnast]

...had his flaws and his strengths. So did his second lieutenant,
Sidney Rigdon.
...

CFR


UD

It's been a number of years ago now that I read Van Wagoner's, "Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess". If my memory serves me correct the author was very up front and honest in regards to Rigdon's abilities and his weaknesses/foibles. I thoroughly enjoyed the book, but came away with the perception that Sidney, even though a brilliant and talented individual in many respects, was a somewhat flawed individual.

Just like most of us!

An excerpt from the review at Signature Books dealing with the "Sidney Rigdon A Portrait of Religious Excess"

[Rigdon was an] Intellectually gifted, manic-depressive, an eloquent orator and social innovator but a chronic indigent, Rigdon aspired to altruism but demanded advantage and deference.

Regards,
MG

[_Yong Xi]

Joseph Smith was an amazing young man. But he was not someone who was born noticeable. In fact, during his early years he did not stand out from the crowd at all. And certainly when he claimed to have his first vision, he was not that exceptional, which is why he wasn't making an impact at first. And even during the Book of Mormon translation he was not exceptional. And related to this was that when the book was published people searched high and low for the possible author. I don't think that very many believed that Joseph wrote it.

And then of course, if he were a fraudster he would not have succeeded without the 11 witnesses. This got the ball rolling. Alone, he would have fell on his face for sure. But with 11 people making a testimony to what they saw...well....for many a potential convert that was enough. Not to mention Emma having faith in her husband. I am sure that she was asked often by members to tell the story of how it all began´. But much of it is gone with the wind.

Joseph himself would have failed. But with others supporting his claims, he was destined to suceed andn succeed he did.

And as time moved forward and the persecution persisted, he got stronger and wiser and not weaker. He grew with the persecution and persevered. And with all that, god did well to chose him.

I just can't resist:

I know people that are dead that were related to people who were descended from Paul who wasn't married and had no children but Paul knew Peter and James who knew Jesus and this was verified by Peter and James at that time and then they died and came back and visited Joseph Smith and told him that Jesus was real and Joseph told my great-great-great-great grandfather and he passed the story down to his son and so on until it came to me and I went to the Bible and sure enough Jesus was in there and he knew Peter and James and they must have met Paul who wrote about Jesus so it is verified that Jesus is real and so far nobody has proven this untrue and none of them were horny toads including Joseph.