The Challenge

[_mentalgymnast]

What books have you read about the history of ancient America?

Most of the reading that I have done has been through the filters of others that have read in depth and then made commentary remarks or written extensively on what they have garnered from their reading. Some online, and some in print. For example, a few years ago now, I remember that you had conversations over at the ZLMB with some apologetic types (Brant Gardner and others) about various historical issues connected with meso-american political structures, Book of Mormon anachronistic conundrums, horses/steel, and the like. I found it interesting.

I've tried to keep up with as much of this sort of conversation between the critics and the apologists as I've had time or inclination to do so. I have NOT read the books which you referenced during these in depth discussions that you've had over the years with apologists. But I have kept up with the actual conversations.

Those that you've been involved in have been some of my favorites, to be honest with you.

Regards,
MG

[_Uncle Dale]

[

[Rigdon was an] Intellectually gifted, manic-depressive, an eloquent orator and
social innovator but a chronic indigent, Rigdon aspired to altruism but
demanded advantage and deference.

So he was a bad LDS because he was mentally ill and poverty stricken?

Was he an honest and worthy enough LDS to meet Jesus Christ, face-to-face?

UD

[_Uncle Dale]

...
Most of the reading that I have done has been through the filters of others
...

Pop Quiz:

Palenque, Tikal and Copan were built by...

A. Jaredites

B. Nephites

C. Mulekites

D. Lamanites

E. The 10 Lost Tribes

F. None of the above


UD

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

... one must say that Our Creator has, at the very least, a curious habit of picking sorely inept types to spread His word. Wouldn't you agree? Interesting fellow, that Mr Eloheim...

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

Indeed. It does seem that the prophet scheme generally has failed over and over again, and what do we say about people who do the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome?

[_Dr. Shades]

mentalgymnast:

If a Jehovah's Witness came up to you and asked you to look at the many accomplishments of the Watchtower, and ask you who else could God choose to restore a correct interpretation of the Bible other than Pastor Russell, how would you respond?

[_beastie]

Most of the reading that I have done has been through the filters of others that have read in depth and then made commentary remarks or written extensively on what they have garnered from their reading. Some online, and some in print. For example, a few years ago now, I remember that you had conversations over at the ZLMB with some apologetic types (Brant Gardner and others) about various historical issues connected with meso-american political structures, Book of Mormon anachronistic conundrums, horses/steel, and the like. I found it interesting.

I've tried to keep up with as much of this sort of conversation between the critics and the apologists as I've had time or inclination to do so. I have NOT read the books which you referenced during these in depth discussions that you've had over the years with apologists. But I have kept up with the actual conversations.

Those that you've been involved in have been some of my favorites, to be honest with you.

Thanks, MG. I do recommend that you read some books on your own - just books about ancient Mesoamerica, outside any Book of Mormon issues. That will give you a better "feel" for that culture, which will help you better evaluate the historicity claims.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

As I've mentioned, the church is what it is today and is doing quite well in accomplishing its three fold mission.

Other churches are also doing quite well in accomplishing their missions. Does that mean anything about their truthfulness?

beastie, you already know that Satan is a nice guy to all other religions except the Mormons.

The Mormon church is the ONLY one on his radar. He wins when someone dies a non-mormon.

NOT.

I also jut realized MG's statement about LDS Inc doing quite well in accomplishing it's three fold mission. I beg to differ.

Proclaim the gospel? Ahhh convert baptisms outside of LDS families continues to fall.

Perfect the saints? Give the estimate of the number of defectors and inactives, I'd say they are failing at that.

Redeem the dead? Necrodunking is senseless and serves one purpose only. HOWEVER, given that temple attendance is also falling, coupled with a do not dig-up order on Jews, I'd say they are failing at that as well.

[_krose]

It's entirely the wrong question, misdirection at its best.

What really needs to be addressed is whether Elohim and Jehovah ever really wanted people to believe and accept the restoration and Mormonism. If they did, certainly they would have provided actual evidence -- solid enough evidence to convince more people.

If Joseph's teachings and the Book of Mormon are really God's Truth, they ought to convince more than a measly 0.01% of the world's population.

It wouldn't matter who was used as a vessel for the restoration if there was actually strong evidence for its authenticity.

[_krose]

Proclaim the gospel...
Perfect the saints...
Redeem the dead...

So these three constitute the church's "mission"?

I can't speak to the middle one, because that's a pretty murky goal. But the first and third are easily measurable, and it's clear that they are doomed at the present rate.

If "proclaiming the gospel" means nothing more than letting people know that the LDS church exists, they're probably doing okay. But if it means getting everyone to understand the church's doctrine, that's not going well at all; very few Americans, even, could tell you what Mormons believe (if they could even pick them out of a lineup next to JWs and Amish). Outside the US it's even less likely.

And if it means converting people, it's a dismal failure. Unless something drastic happens, there is very little chance of ever doing better than just keeping up with the birth rate and maintaining their tiny percentage of the world's population.

The task of "redeeming the dead" is like attempting to empty Utah Lake with a bucket. Temple work for the dead is falling further behind every day, because it can't even keep up with the huge number of new people who die each day. Not to mention the huge number of people who died undocumented or even unnamed throughout the existence of humankind.

[_JAK]

krose,

Without question, you know how different, how far apart Amish and Jehovah’s Witnesses are.

You appear to understand as well just how competitive Christian groups are and how intolerant they are of one another. The various groups of Christians “proclaiming the gospel” proclaim quite different things in the vast array of Christian pundits.

How would you propose we discover the reliability (validity) of the many claims and dogmas? Or, are you recognizing that none is reliable?

JAK