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OTOH, if the Book of Mormon is an artifact from a lost world of antiquity and a record of a fallen people to whom a bona fide God (singular) came to visit... then we have some serious sh _ _ to wade through before we can reject Joseph Smith's claims.

Your argument seems to have shifted. Are you no longer arguing that the fact that Joseph Smith's behavior resulted in the church moving to Utah, which resulted in the church surviving and thriving, is evidence, somehow, that he was a true prophet?

The question of whether or not the Book of Mormon is an artifact from an ancient American culture can be settled for anyone who does not already believe it is is for spiritual reasons. Study the history of ancient America. Study the history of ancient Mesoamerica. Read the Book of Mormon and compare that culture to the real history of ancient America. I am extremely confident that anyone who engages in such a comparative study will conclude that there is simply no way the Book of Mormon is an ancient American artifact - with the exception of people who believe the Book of Mormon is an ancient American artifact because they believe God has told them so.

John Clark was absolutely correct when he stated that it's necessary to have a spiritual belief in the Book of Mormon before one can recognize the "evidence" that supports its historicity. In my opinion, this is a damning admission. If the Book of Mormon is truly an ancient American document, one should not have to have a testimony to recognize that fact. The evidence, absent any spiritual bias, would point to that fact. Instead, the evidence overwhelmingly points the other way.

What books have you read about the history of ancient America?

Oh, and by the way, if Joseph Smith were to have been pushed out of the early church and found to have been a fallen prophet, the subsequent church leaders could have easily resolved the problem of 2 Nephi. They would just have silently, without explanation, changed the scripture. They've done it many times, and few protest or even notice. When they changed the scripture that said Joseph Smith should pretend to no other gift other than translating the Book of Mormon, logically speaking, every member should have quit the church then and there. But they didn't. Like today, most probably didn't even notice. Most people just believe in a religion because their parents taught them to believe. It's comfortable. It's a tribe. They have little to no interest in theology or history.

beastie wrote:...
What books have you read about the history of ancient America?
...

A person who believes in Nephites did not come to his/her deluded belief
by any rational means, and they will not be influenced by any rational means
to abandon that belief.

Show them a thousand books on preColumbian America -- take them on a
hundred scientific excavations of ancient American artifacts -- put them into
museum laboratories where ancient American ceramics, textiles, food
remains, domesticated grain fossil pollen, metallurgy, and written language
inscriptions can be studied, and such persons will be oblivious to the
paleo-anthropological record.

Their "Nephites" will have always lived some where else and at some time
other than the paleo-anthropological record indicates, for thousands of
identified preColumbian sites/cultures/artifacts.

Their "Nephites" obtained maize from out of thin air -- having no contact
with America's known maize-growing cultures. Their "Nephites" knew
nothing of ball games, chili peppers, parrots, chocolate, or obsidian.
Their "Nephites" left behind no Old World ceramic shards, no Old World
textile remains, no Old World language inscriptions, no synagogues,
no spacious buildings, no roads, no chariots, no horses, no churches,
no Christian symbols, no plows, no swords, no helmets, no ships, and
no plates of gold ---- save one set, now conveniently unavailable.

These people believe in "Nephites" in the same way that children believe
in Santa's elves -- and nothing in this world will ever cure their delusion.



We can only pity them -- and keep them from teaching our children and
our children's children.

Uncle Dale

beastie wrote:

OTOH, if the Book of Mormon is an artifact from a lost world of antiquity and a record of a fallen people to whom a bona fide God (singular) came to visit... then we have some serious sh _ _ to wade through before we can reject Joseph Smith's claims.

Your argument seems to have shifted. Are you no longer arguing that the fact that Joseph Smith's behavior resulted in the church moving to Utah, which resulted in the church surviving and thriving, is evidence, somehow, that he was a true prophet?

Not at all. Joseph Smith played his part in the orchestrated relocation of the church to Utah. There were other variables/conditions/situations/people which also played their part. The important thing in my theoretical construct is that the church exist as it does today with a base of operations which provides optimum opportunity for the church to fulfill its three fold mission. Salt Lake City has proved to be the "right place" as Brother Brigham said.

Happen chance?

All we can really say is that the move to Utah and the conditions which acted as the catalysts in moving the church to the Great Basin have been serendipitously fortunate for the church as it carries out its mandate/mission.

God driven and directed?

Only time will tell. But things seem to be moving forward quite well and the church is doing a marvelous work throughout the world... to the dismay of its critics.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:...
Only time will tell.
...
MG

After 180 years, that's the best you can come up with?

So, then what? We all just wait another 180 years, to see if Christ and
Enoch's City really do descend upon Jackson County, Missouri, to
"redeem" the "Center Stake of Zion?"



Tell you, what -- if after another 180 years of Mormon failure to establish the
Political Kingdom of God -- and another 180 years of Mormon failure to point
out the Nephite's Zarahemla, will you then concede that you are wrong?

I'm willing to give you that extra 180 years, if you think it will help.

UD

Uncle Dale wrote:

mentalgymnast wrote:...

As much as Ray, Dale, and others would like to believe that
the Book of Mormon has been proven false, however, this is not the case.
...

If there truly were Nephites, then let me be struck speechless, like
Alma -- this very instant.

(waits 60 seconds)

Let's try that again -- If there truly were Nephites, then let me be
struck with blindness like, Saul -- this very instant.

(waits another 60 seconds)

Maybe I'm not trying hard enough -- If there truly were Nephites,
then let my unbelief be counted against me as the sin against the
Holy Ghost, and let me be struck dead as was Uzzah of old.

(waits another 60 seconds)

OK. I really need to put my whole energy into it this time -- If there
truly were Nephites, then let Lucifer take my soul unto hell this
very moment....

(waits another 60 seconds)

Maybe I'd better check with President Monson, to see if I'm not
doing this cursing thing right? Do I need the power of the priesthood
to have myself smitten for my unholy blasphemy against the Nephites?

UD

It may well be that you are still being allowed to perform your part/role in the whole scheme of things Dale. Your work may not be finished yet. Remember? Opposition in all things. You are playing a very important part. Choices are made in response to oppositional forces. Your Spaulding Theory studies and your conclusions (tentative?) provide an obstacle to some as they choose between faith and doubt and the consequences which this choice entails.

It is all part of God's plan. Keep up the fight. You are needed.

I don't know why, but the lyrics to this song came to mind as you were mocking God with your words above. Weird, huh?

http://www.lyricstime.com/monty-python- ... yrics.html

Regards,
MG

Uncle Dale wrote:

mentalgymnast wrote:...
Only time will tell.
...
MG

After 180 years, that's the best you can come up with?

So, then what? We all just wait another 180 years, to see if Christ and
Enoch's City really do descend upon Jackson County, Missouri, to
"redeem" the "Center Stake of Zion?"



Tell you, what -- if after another 180 years of Mormon failure to establish the
Political Kingdom of God -- and another 180 years of Mormon failure to point
out the Nephite's Zarahemla, will you then concede that you are wrong?

I'm willing to give you that extra 180 years, if you think it will help.

UD

Life's too short. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord... not to say you're not and all...but just sayin.

I, for one, don't have 180 years to pussyfoot around.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:...
Life's too short.
...

If I notice that you are walking into quicksand, would you rather that I wave and
wish you well -- or would you rather that I warn you that you're making a mistake?

I can go either way -- but I'm always ready to help folks out of their delusions.

And Nephites are a delusion -- just like flying pink elephants.
That's spelled: D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N, in case I'm not being clear enough here.

Avoid that quicksand and those Nephites, and perhaps you'll make it in the end.

UD

Joseph Smith was an amazing young man. But he was not someone who was born noticeable. In fact, during his early years he did not stand out from the crowd at all. And certainly when he claimed to have his first vision, he was not that exceptional, which is why he wasn't making an impact at first. And even during the Book of Mormon translation he was not exceptional. And related to this was that when the book was published people searched high and low for the possible author. I don't think that very many believed that Joseph wrote it.

And then of course, if he were a fraudster he would not have succeeded without the 11 witnesses. This got the ball rolling. Alone, he would have fell on his face for sure. But with 11 people making a testimony to what they saw...well....for many a potential convert that was enough. Not to mention Emma having faith in her husband. I am sure that she was asked often by members to tell the story of how it all began´. But much of it is gone with the wind.

Joseph himself would have failed. But with others supporting his claims, he was destined to suceed andn succeed he did.

And as time moved forward and the persecution persisted, he got stronger and wiser and not weaker. He grew with the persecution and persevered. And with all that, god did well to chose him.

Uncle Dale wrote:... and another 180 years of Mormon failure to point
out the Nephite's Zarahemla, will you then concede that you are wrong?

I'm willing to give you that extra 180 years, if you think it will help.

UD

Perhaps Zarahemla has been found?

Since the best minds in mo'pologia have established the most plausible location for Zarahemla is Mexico, and given the dominance of the Catholic church there, I am surprised they have not gone with a Catholic conspiracy.

Driven, of course by Satan himself whose mission is to keep the Mormon church from taking over the earth, he coerces the Catholics to BURY the great city of Mormon vindication.

Simple answer to why they cannot find this massive city. The Catholics are hiding it.

Then again, that would be a bad PR move.. ah hell, just have Oakes make the statement.

Polygamy-Porter wrote:...
just have Oakes make the statement.

Easier than dusting off the seer-stone and finding the location of Catholic-buried
Zarahemla that way, I suppose.

No need to arose the ire of the Pope, or they might risk a Catholic-buried Provo.

UD