Recent Debate with the Elders and Bishop

[_Kevin Graham]

As some of you might recall, a few weeks ago I was assaulted at gunpoint. My wife and mother-in law insisted these kinds of things only happen to me because I am apostate. Now for the past few years I have allowed my wife and kids to attend Church without much of a fuss. But recently I decided to put my foot down and force my wife to make an intellectual decision about the truth claims of the LDS faith. We both knew she was primarily a cultural Mormon who didn't really know much about doctrines or history, nor did she care to. But she did feel the Church was what it claimed, and she had a very hard time accepting the notion that it wasn't.

Typically what happened in the past, was I would occassionally bring up an point or two that I knew would make her question the faith, if only for a moment, only to see her ultimately blow it off. I could always tell she would be bothered by what I said, wondering if what I was saying was true, but then confirmation bias would kick in and she would say I don`t know what really happened in those days, and that my sources could be lying for all I knew.

Joseph Smith using a peep stone, marrying a teenager and other women who were already married, just didn't seem realistic to her. Recently I explained my problem with the Book of Abraham. I told her that this proved to me beyond a reasonable doubt, that Joseph Smith wasn`t inspired at all. He couldn`t translate ancient documents.

So last week the Elders came by with a third newbie who had yet to be assigned a companion. They just picked him up from the airport and I guess they were in the area. They came into the school and I sat down with them and we "shot the bull" for about twenty minutes, mainly talking about what was going on in college football.

So then my wife crashed the discussion and demanded that I debate them on issues like the Book of Abraham papyri. My wife was being rather rude, and I could tell the missionaries just wanted to get the hell out of there. Only later did I realize her "plan" was to have the Elders prove me wrong on so many of the issues I had raised in the past. She first mentioned the papyrus and the Elders drew blanks. They really had no idea what she was talking about. And as far as these guys knew, I was an active member. This was only the second time I met them.

So as my wife was having a meltdown, a couple of the elders started getting teary-eyed, and I told her to stop because she was embarrassing everyone, including herself. These kids didn`t come over to solve our religious disputes. I explained that the missionaries are not taught to debate on such topics. So she stomped out disappointed with the Elders because they weren't able to show I was lying. So she called the boship and scheduled an appointment for us this past sunday.

The Bishop canceled twice before because he couldn`t find someone to come with him who knew any of the usual "anti-Mormon" arguments. So on sunday he finally shows up with someone from the ward. They really couldn't respond to any of the points I made, and really just sat back and watched me lecture on various subjects. My wife got emotional with them because she couldn`t understand why they couldn`t refute anything I said. Polygamy they tried to say was a result of the "War" in America. I tried not to laugh and I kindly told them this was not true. I explained how an angel came to Smith's bed one night and threatened him with a flaming sword. They just looked at me like I was making this stuff up. The other guy asked me if I had ever heard of FAIR. I told him yes, and that if he searched my name on their website, he'd find a handful of articles written by me. These guys had no idea what they were walking into and I almost felt bad for them.

Anyway.... it seems this was a good experience for me and my wife because it seems now she realizes I wasn`t making this stuff up. She made a deal with me that she wouldn`t go to Church anymore if I agreed to cut back on my time on the internet. I think this is a new beginning for me and my family, without the Church. This is probably the beginning of my departure from online debates, too.

[_SoHo]

I have bought multiple copies of Rough Stone Rolling just to have something to share that, at a minimum, touches the edges of what was formally known as anti-mormon propaganda. It's absolutely amazing that there isn't any kind of agreed factual foundation from which to even begin discussion with most members, including those in high callings.

[_Droopy]

As some of you might recall, a few weeks ago I was assaulted at gunpoint.

Probably BKP looking for hidden nipple rings.

My wife and mother-in law insisted these kinds of things only happen to me because I am apostate.

This has happened before? Have you considered moving to a gated community?

Now for the past few years I have allowed my wife and kids to attend Church without much of a fuss. But recently I decided to put my foot down and force my wife to make an intellectual decision about the truth claims of the LDS faith. We both knew she was primarily a cultural Mormon who didn't really know much about doctrines or history, nor did she care to. But she did feel the Church was what it claimed, and she had a very hard time accepting the notion that it wasn't.

This isn't unusual for intellectually honest people who, as the Book of Mormon says, are not "passed feeling". Get rid of the intellectual egomania, quit pouting, and who knows what new vistas might open up.

Joseph Smith using a peep stone, marrying a teenager and other women who were already married, just didn't seem realistic to her.

Sounds positively crazy to me.

Recently I explained my problem with the Book of Abraham. I told her that this proved to me beyond a reasonable doubt, that Joseph Smith wasn`t inspired at all. He couldn`t translate ancient documents.

Will et al have already owned you repeatedly on this issue, and its only going to get worse over time. All your eggs are in one soggy basket on this one, and when the bottom falls out, everything goes with it.

...skip psychological trauma with missionaries...

The Bishop canceled twice before because he couldn`t find someone to come with him who knew any of the usual "anti-Mormon" arguments. So on sunday he finally shows up with someone from the ward. They really couldn't respond to any of the points I made, and really just sat back and watched me lecture on various subjects. My wife got emotional with them because she couldn`t understand why they couldn`t refute anything I said. Polygamy they tried to say was a result of the "War" in America. I tried not to laugh and I kindly told them this was not true. I explained how an angel came to Smith's bed one night and threatened him with a flaming sword. They just looked at me like I was making this stuff up. The other guy asked me if I had ever heard of FAIR. I told him yes, and that if he searched my name on their website, he'd find a handful of articles written by me. These guys had no idea what they were walking into and I almost felt bad for them.

Wish I had been there. Really I do.

Anyway.... it seems this was a good experience for me and my wife because it seems now she realizes I wasn`t making this stuff up.

Its really going to hit the fan though, when she finally realizes that, although your not making up the issues, the actual intellectual substance of your criticisms is abysmal, and grounded, not in a sincere desire to know the truth, but in your ego war with the Church and with your former comrades at FAIR.

At some point, the real reason for your apostasy will be manifest, and then all the scapegoating of the Book of Abraham can be set aside.

[_Ray A]

My wife got emotional with them because she couldn`t understand why they couldn`t refute anything I said. Polygamy they tried to say was a result of the "War" in America. I tried not to laugh and I kindly told them this was not true.

I've had this experience with an elderly missionary couple, when I told them that Joseph Smith was not only involved with polygyny, but also polyandry. The elderly Elder, fist clenched, slammed his hand on my dining room table. "That is not true!! If that were the case Joseph Smith could not have been a Prophet!"

Out of the mouths of babes on "milk".....

Cute ending: He was the one, post-mission, who eventually sent me Poll's Reflections of a Mormon Historian (with the Liahona/Iron-Rod essay).

[_Kevin Graham]

At the very end, when they were about to leave with a prayer, my wife brought up the peep stone in the hat, and the Bishop quickly shook his head and said, "Oh I don't believe that." He then asked his partner to close with a prayer and they left.

I just find it interesting that those who know the least about Joseph Smith, are generally those who adore him so much.

The Bishop did have the decency to agree that polygamy is Church doctrine even though it isn't currently practiced. When he said that, I looked at my wife and asked her what she thought about me marrying more women in the hereafter. No Mormon authority can argue that this wouldn't or couldn't happen, and it is usually enough to turn off most believing LDS women.

[_Manfred]

At the very end, when they were about to leave with a prayer, my wife brought up the peep stone in the hat, and the Bishop quickly shook his head and said, "Oh I don't believe that."

Wow. Where is your ward? In a cave on the moon?

[_Gazelam]

Kevin,
I know the same arguements you do. The First Presidency do as well. The problem isnt one of doctrinal disagreement, its one of attitude and perspective. Your attitude is no different than that of Korah (Numbers chp.16). You view things from your own hard hearted perspective, questioning and doubting instead of pressing forward in faith and hope.

You don't know how the Book of Mormon was translated. You know that a Seerstone was used, similar to the Urim and Thummim the ancients used, the same as those spoken of in the Book of Revelation. Beyond the testimonies of those involved, we don't have any idea how Joseph was able to do it. Why would you have a problem with how he did it, since you don't know anyway? The Book of Mormon stands on its own, bringing millions into Christs church to partake of the blessings that are here.

Polygamy is a true doctrine. Davids wives were given to him by God, and Christ came through Davids lineage. Joseph asked in regards to the doctrine, and God told him if he weas instructed in the doctrine he woudl have to live it. The average age of marriage in those days was 14, and the sealing of Joseph to others was done in order that he could lay claim on them in the world to come, his calling and election having already been made sure. It is the Abrahamic covenant in effect, bringing alvation to families tied together.

The Book of Abraham does more to prove Joseph a Prophet than any other source. Teh testimonies of those involved with it state that there was far more papyrus than the few pictures that have been preserved. In a trial reading they spent hours going through the text, taking turns reading it through. We have very little, but what we do have testifies to the strength, breadth, and depth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is expanded upon when you read it alongside the other Books of Abraham that have been discovered in other parts of the world.

I think it is very sad that you have no one near your home that can assist your wife in strengthening her testimony. I would greatly appreciate it if you would allow your wife to e-mail me with any questions she has. She can PM me here at Shades board, or reach me at tannehill.mike7@gmail.com. If you want to talk by phone I will give you my number through a PM.

[_marg]

K

Polygamy is a true doctrine. Davids wives were given to him by God,

So in effect you think it's okay to view and treat women like slaves and if not you then you think it's okay that your God does.

[_Gazelam]

Marg,

So in effect you think it's okay to view and treat women like slaves and if not you then you think it's okay that your God does.

Polygamy has nothing to do with slavery. It has everything to do with family.

[Guest]

Kevin,

Wow. Excellent news!

Don't you just love it when a plan to disprove you completely backfires?

My wife attempted the same thing, only using fair/farms and a pile of books.

May I wax metaphorically as I reflect over her transition out of the cult?

It back fired on many occasions and each glorious time it would hit the cute little testimonkey perched on her shoulder wounding him/her/it. Even though he was hiding under my wife's protective jesus jammies, this backfiring would often knock a fair amount of warm fuzzies fur off him.

The poor little testimonkey grew weary over the next couple of years as he never recovered from his wounds from her plan backfiring. Most of the time he would shiver due to this lack of warm fuzzies fur.

Once in a while I would trick him and get him drunk, he would spill his guts while intoxicated and admit he KNEW nothing but only hoped things were "True".

Finally one day I found him hanging dead from a tree in our front yard. Truth maggots were already consuming his flesh at a ferocious rate. My wife had hanged the little rascal with a 12 knot noose made from her old jesus jammies.

While my wife and our kids have been out of the cult for over 2.5 years, I still enjoy taking pot shots at other testimonkies, Especially the ones who try and throw their diarrhea at me. Recently two unwitting missionaries came by and bravely inquired about our in activity as a family.

Rolling up the papyrus and beating their wee testimonkeys about the head is quite amusing.

These boys had the same puzzled look when I told them the papyrus had been rediscovered. They asked, "WHAT PAPYRUS??"

"The papyrus that the church bought for $2500 from a crooked salesman selling stolen Egyptian antiquities", I relied. "The same papyrus that Joseph TRANSLATED into the Book of Abraham???, ya know??"

I had to have them pull their PofGP out and showed them the header about the papyrus that had fallen into the hands of the prophet...

So when I got to the part about the modern (real) translation not matching Smiths, it was so quiet on my front porch you could hear a testimonkey hit the cold hard pavement... actually two testimonkies! KerrrrrSPLAT! kerSPLAT!

in my opinion, LDS Inc does not know what they are up against. You can tell the younger kids all the sordid history and having them grow up in it will make it seem not out of the ordinary, but teach this to thinking 19 year old kids and you run a huge risk of wide spread testimonkey deaths! Or send em out into the wild were not only evangelical attacks are on the rise, but former members like me lie in eager wait to knock their little fuzzy testimonkies off their shoulder with bat made from hardened papyrus and then proceed to chop them up with a flaming sword!

Anywho, I think your wife is moving along quite nicely. Soon she will have a new purse made from the skin of her former testimonkey.

One question though, members down there still believe and teach that they are lamanites?