Gazelam wrote:Polygamy has nothing to do with slavery. It has everything to do with family.
Really?
But you said
Gazelam wrote:Polygamy is a true doctrine. Davids wives were given to him by God,
So when a woman is GIVEN to a man, not meets a man, not joins a man, not enjoys a man's company.. ya know the term GIVEN, sounds like quite possibly against her will.
And her being GIVEN to a man, subjugates her BELOW the man.
Or perhaps I am talking to a wall here. You are probably nodding your head yes to all of this and raising one eyebrow as you lean forward and say, "Uh yeah Porter, women ARE below men, God made it that way!"
New name: Boaz The most viewed "ignored" poster in Shady Acres® !
This is such a crazy story that I have a hard time believing it. Why? Well, I do have a good reason. Kevin knows very well the sites that he could direct his wife to if he wanted to. He could suggest FARMS and even the FAIRwiki for searching for answers. But instead he plays the emotional and intellectual bully with people and his wife.
Now if this were my wife, I would say this, and then show her the FARMS response and the response for the FAIRwiki. It is really that simple. The fairwiki addresses the claims of the critics very well but Kevin just couldn't do it. Instead, he would rather torture his poor wife with intellectualisms.
I am rather surpised at you Kevin. Really, be kind and direct her to the sites that address issues so that she knows that the issues you have have been addressed by apologists, of which you used to play apart.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
I have often heard that TBMs have no respect or time for those who don't believe. But really the exmos are an intolerant bunch of people who just can't leave well enough alone.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Kevin Graham wrote:The other guy asked me if I had ever heard of FAIR. I told him yes, and that if he searched my name on their website, he'd find a handful of articles written by me. These guys had no idea what they were walking into and I almost felt bad for them.
Laugh. Out. Loud.
Congratulations on the breakthrough with your wife. I remember years ago when this happened for me and my wife (finally seeing eye-to-eye on the Mormon issue), it was like falling in love all over again.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
why me wrote:Now if this were my wife, I would say this, and then show her the FARMS response and the response for the FAIRwiki. It is really that simple. The fairwiki addresses the claims of the critics very well...
The couple of articles I have looked at on the FAIRwiki are shallow and self-contradictory. Specifically the ones on DNA/Book of Mormon and Isaiah in the Book of Mormon are sucky. But if a person just wants to see that someone, somewhere, is writing something that somehow responds to the issues, it might satisfy them. Just don't think about the words on the screen too much. It'll be alright.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
== This is such a crazy story that I have a hard time believing it.
Which part?
== Why? Well, I do have a good reason. Kevin knows very well the sites that he could direct his wife to if he wanted to.
Sure. But they would only confirm what I said. But my wife has a serious distrust of ANYTHING coming from the internet. All the FARMS stuff would do is confirm what I have said. Yes, Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. Just the fact that this is true bothered her, for the simple fact that it plays into the notion that the Church willfully keeps its people ignorant. All the apologetic crap about how "God wants it that way" won't help a woman who refuses to accept the doctrine of polygamy at all, and who was always taught that the early Mormons only did it because they were being kind to an overpopulation of women, because most of teh men had been killed in an anti-Mormon war!
THIS IS WHAT SHE BELIEVED! This is what I was told before my mission as well, and this is the CRAP LDS apologetics produces.
Blacks and the priesthood. What's the apologetic explanation for that? It is racism, pure and simple, and it means a lot down in Brazil where virtually everyone has black blood in their family tree. Most people down here don't even know about it.
"White and delightsome"? The guy with the bishop tried telling me the usual apologetic line about how it refers only to spiritual purity, but then I directed his attention to the words of Spencer Kimball, who while at conference, proclaimed to the world that American Indians had experienced lighter shades in skin tone as they became more and more affiliated with the Church. Now what's FAIR and FARMS got to say about that? Quick, go search those sites and tell us what you find. The simple fact is, you have too much confidence in FAIR/FARMS ability to adequately answer criticisms.
The old Lamanites = Israelites notion has been shot down by modern science. FARMS and FAIR cannot do anything to quell the frustration a believer has when she finds out what Joseph Smith taught on the matter. All they can do is interpret the Book of Mormon differently and create strawmen about how that isn't what the Book of Mormon says.
== He could suggest FARMS and even the FAIRwiki for searching for answers. But instead he plays the emotional and intellectual bully with people and his wife.
She was the one trying to BULLY ME. She is the one who invited them over here in an attempt to prove her husband is just reading anti-Mormon books filled with lies,. etc. She gave them the opportunity to prove I had lied about something, and they left agreeing that what I said was essentially true.
== Now if this were my wife, I would say this, and then show her the FARMS response and the response for the FAIRwiki. It is really that simple.
Only if your wife is as dumb would like her to be. My wife isn`t, and she knows where to find apologetic riff raff if she really wants it. It amazes me how you guys actually think FAIR and FARMS serves a valid purpose in disproving anything I have said. All it ever does is comfort those who never had any intention of wanting to know the truth. People who refuse to weigh the evidence carefully and objectively, and following the evidence to its natural conclusion. These organizations were designed to offer fodder for those who live in confirmation bias. People who refuse to read books critical of the faith, but choose to read reviews of them. Both organizations have proved to be intellectually bankrupt on the Book of Abraham issue, which is the main reason I ended up leaving. She knows the issues. I gave her Gee's book, but I also showed where he had lied and manipulated photos so it would appear his ridiculous two ink argument had merit. That's something you won't learn from FAIR or FARMS.
== fairwiki addresses the claims of the critics very well but Kevin just couldn't do it. Instead, he would rather torture his poor wife with intellectualisms.
How dare I expect her to make an intellectual choice based on the evidence. What a horrible husband!
== I am rather surpised at you Kevin. Really, be kind and direct her to the sites that address issues so that she knows that the issues you have have been addressed by apologists, of which you used to play apart.
Stop being an arrogant prick by presuming to know my wife, and what it is she needs, and what it is I have or havn't shown her.
The weird part is, according to the TBMs at MAD, all of the issues you presented to your wife, the missionaries, the bishop, and the smart member, all of those issues are well known and the information is readily available. If they don't know about these issues, it is their own fault, according to the apologists. And if they lose their testimony over it, they have no one to blame but themselves for being too lazy to teach themselves the real church history.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775