Question for Gaz...

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_Yoda

Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Yoda »

Jersey Girl wrote:Who taught you that?

I want Bible references.


Gaz wrote:Matthew Chapter one, verse one.



Jersey Girl wrote:You know how LDS are offended when folks discuss things such as garments, temple content, etc?

I find your application of the verse in question completely disgusting.


Just so we're all clear here, let's quote the verse, rather than play BC's usual game of quoting simply the scripture reference. This is the verse, so that we are all on the same page:

Matthew 1:1 wrote:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Gaz....I think I understand what Jersey Girl is saying. You implied that Jesus was brought up in a polygamous family. He wasn't. He was descended through a polygamous line. There is a difference.

Also, as Harmony pointed out..and as I have also stated in prior threads....I think there is a distinct difference between the Jewish culture, and how God wants us to live.

You and I have been at an impasse on this...but I still come back to the fact that polygamy was a principle taught in the Old Testament. In NO place is it taught, or even referred to, in the New Testament.

Christ's coming was the dawn of fulfillment to the old laws. Christ taught about one man and one woman cleaving to one another. Polygamy seems like a step backward....not a step forward.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Jersey Girl »

What Liz said.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Gazelam
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Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Gazelam »

Liz,
You and I have been at an impasse on this...but I still come back to the fact that polygamy was a principle taught in the Old Testament. In NO place is it taught, or even referred to, in the New Testament.


1 Corinthians 7:10-11 & 27-28.

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife


27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you


Verses 10-11 show that, if a believer WIFE leaves her believer HUSBAND, the believer WIFE is commanded of God to either: remain unmarried, or be reconciled back to her husband. Believer HUSBAND is commanded of God to: not put away any wife, and to
let any departed wife return back to him.

The key point is that the HUSBAND is NOT given the same commandments of instruction. Only the WIFE is commanded to remain unmarried, but the HUSBAND is not given that commandment. He is commanded of God to let her be married to him, either way!

Accordingly, the HUSBAND is of course, still free to marry another wife. That fact is further proved by the later verses of 27-28.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Ray A

Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Ray A »

Gazelam wrote:
1 Corinthians 7:10-11 & 27-28.

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife


27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you


Verses 10-11 show that, if a believer WIFE leaves her believer HUSBAND, the believer WIFE is commanded of God to either: remain unmarried, or be reconciled back to her husband. Believer HUSBAND is commanded of God to: not put away any wife, and to
let any departed wife return back to him.

The key point is that the HUSBAND is NOT given the same commandments of instruction. Only the WIFE is commanded to remain unmarried, but the HUSBAND is not given that commandment. He is commanded of God to let her be married to him, either way!

Accordingly, the HUSBAND is of course, still free to marry another wife. That fact is further proved by the later verses of 27-28.


In other words, women, in your Jesus Theology, are second-class citizens. The husbands are at liberty to choose as many wives as they like, but the woman is only entitled to one husband.

How much more has Mormon doctrine perverted your mind?

I'd dump the whole lot - Christianity and Mormonism - as hopeless write-offs. I'd capture some of the more humane elements of the Gospels, but even there my patience is wearing thin.

People like you almost drive me to the conclusion that religion is the biggest bogus and hypocritical facade in human history.

And by the way, Gaz, your comments about Gays make me ill. I'm convinced that if you could do it, you'd have them all hanged and burned.

You really are a pathetic creature, and a disgrace to humanity. No doubt, however, a glory to Religion.
_MsJack
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Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _MsJack »

Gazelam, I really believe you are reading things into the text of 1 Corinthians 7 which are simply not there. Verses 10-11 are about divorce and remarriage, not polygamy. Polygamy isn't even in view. Beyond that, once Paul has commanded divorced women not to re-marry, he wouldn't have to command divorced men not to re-marry. It would be assumed that the same rules applied to men.

As an example of this principle, see Christ's words in Matthew 5:28:

"But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Jesus only talks about men thinking lustfully about women. Does that mean women are free to think lustfully about men and not have it counted as a sin? Of course not. It's assumed that the same principles apply to both genders unless otherwise stated.

1 Corinthians 7:27-28 is part of a completely different train of thought starting in v. 25 that deals with whether or not virgins should marry. It has nothing to do with granting men permission to marry after a divorce.

Also, let's not forget what Christ said in Matthew 19:8-9:

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery."

Seems like a pretty clear prohibition against men having free reign to marry after a divorce. Some Christians have argued that these verses show that Jesus prohibited polygamy. I think that's a tenuous argument, but certainly no more tenuous than what you're trying to argue here.

There's a lot I can say about the historical, cultural context of Old Testament polygamy and why it was practiced, but I've gotta run.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Yoda

Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Yoda »

Gaz--

You are misconstruing the entire scriptural reference. You are pulling things way out of context, and applying what you want to see.

I think in order to really study this, we need to look at the entire chapter.

(Lest you forget, Gaz, I graduated from seminary, too! LOL)

1 Corinthians 7 wrote:THE FIRST EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE
CORINTHIANS
CHAPTER 7
Paul answers special questions about marriage among those called on missions—Paul extols self-discipline.
1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.
25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.
27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.
36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
37 Nevertheless, he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.


First of all, take a look at what is italicized:
Paul answers special questions about marriage among those called on missions—Paul extols self-discipline.


Paul's epistle here is actually encouraging followers of Christ to serve missions and spread the word. It is clear from his overall attitude that he finds marriage a whole distraction to this process. Let's take a look at the first verse:

1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.


He goes on to say:
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.


He is acknowledging that if you must give in to the distraction of lustful needs, it should be done within the bounds of marriage.

Take a look at verse 7-9, which directly precedes the verses you referenced (10 and 11):
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


(Bold emphasis mine)

Paul would actually prefer that Christ's missionaries remain unmarried as he is. However, he goes on to state that it is much better for them to marry than to "burn" for giving into fornication.

This puts a whole new spin on the next two verses:

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


It is clear here that Paul is specifically speaking of divorce. The Lord is commanding the couple to stay together. The second verse, "But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife." is an instruction to the husband to not "throw his wife out" if she chooses to reconcile with him. In other words, it is better for the couple to remain married. THAT is what those verses are all about. It has nothing to do with polygamy whatsoever. It is about avoiding divorce at all costs.

As a side note, I found this next section of verses interesting:
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


What Paul is saying here is that if one spouse leaves the Church, or "fails to believe", that the marriage should stay intact. More bishops need to abide by this counsel when speaking with one spouse or the other who has chosen to leave the Church.
_Pokatator
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Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Pokatator »

Gaz, let's quit beating around the bush. I think most of your posts are excrement and on occasion especially on gay issues I have called you excrement. I know perfectly well that when I or anyone else resorts to name calling they have lost the argument. Well I don't ever expect to win an argument with you, it seems an impossible task. So I will opine and leave you to your own mind and spin on it and will concede defeat before I feel like calling you a name again.

Why only quote the Bible? Here is the Book of Mormon.

Jacob 2:23-34:

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
[27] Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
[28] For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
[29] Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

Mosiah 11:1-4, & 14:

[1] And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons; therefore Noah began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in the ways of his father.

[2] For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness

[3] And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.

[4] And all this did he take to support himself, and his wives and his concubines; and also his priests, and their wives and their concubines; thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom.
...

[14] And it came to pass that he placed his heart upon his riches, and he spent his time in riotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots.


Ether 10:5-7:

[5] And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men's shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.

[6] And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did cast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.

[7] Wherefore he did obtain all his fine work, yea, even his fine gold he did cause to be refined in prison, and all manner of fine workmanship he did cause to be wrought in prison. And it came to pass that he did afflict the people with his whoredoms and abominations.

Gaz, you consider this scripture, I do not but I can plainly see that these "scriptures" dismiss your interpretation of Matt 1:1. You are in so called good company though Ole Joe couldn't read and comprehend these same "scriptures" either.

History, even made up history tends to repeats itself, "it came to pass that Joseph Smith did afflict the people with his whoredoms and abominations"
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
_Yoda

Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Yoda »

Thanks for pointing out these scriptures, Pok. I will tell you that Gaz, BC, and I have consistently "gone the rounds" and reached an impasse regarding Jacob 2.

BC and Gaz seem to feel that Jacob 2:30 is the "get out of jail free card" for that section.

What I find convenient when TBM's bring up this scripture is that it is, again, just like the other sets of scripture I posted above....taken out of context. You have to look at what comes directly before and directly after that verse.

If you read Jacob 2:29-31, instead of simply reading Jacob 2:30, the whole meaning changes:
[29] Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.


The Lord very quickly explains why he is giving the command of one wife only. He has heard the mourning of the daughters.

That is a pretty powerful witness against polygamy, in my book.
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
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Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Gaz,

What happened to verses 12-26? You are cherry picking verses out of context.

Off to shovel my way to work.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Yoda

Re: Question for Gazelam...

Post by _Yoda »

Jersey Girl wrote:Gazelam,

What happened to verses 12-26? You are cherry picking verses out of context.

Off to shovel my way to work.

Jersey Girl


This is why Jersey Girl is such a genius. She just took my whole convoluted post about that section in Matthew and summarized it in two sentences. LOL
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